Culture Moments: What does it mean to have a race-based conversation in different countries?

Show Notes & Highlights

5:54: Larry starts the conversation by asking Ale and Raashi what global race-based conversations have looked like since 2020

14:02: Ale explains why socio-economic status is often intertwined with race-based conversations in Latin America

16:03: Raashi elaborates on the importance of understanding the history of the country you are having a conversation in

21:47: Ale shares how he defines the goal of his work and these conversations as “progress over perfection”

33:45: Raashi on how conversations, definitions, and even your ability to gather data change across countries

Show Transcript

Larry Baker: Hello everyone and welcome to the culture moments podcast. I’m your host, Larry Baker. And I’m thrilled to have you join us for our second season called Brave Conversations with LCW.

In these episodes, you’ll hear from a panel of guests from specific communities offering a range of perspectives on the past two years. We’ll hear about their own experiences as well as their insights on what’s changed and more importantly, what needs to change to move equity forward.

As we all know so much has shifted and changed over the past two years, and for many of us we’re still in recovery from a very difficult 24 months.

Welcome. Today, we will be discussing what it means to have race based conversations in different countries. Following the racial reckoning of 2020 here in the United States, we saw so many companies engage in their own brave conversations. Some for the very first time. While we know that much of this conversation was had with a US-centric context, these are global conversations that have continued all over the world. But how do conversations on race and other countries differ? How do you approach these conversations when considering different cultural identities within one organization? What is needed to move these conversations forward. And then what can you personally do in your own organization to create those spaces for these necessary conversations?

So today to help us answer all of these questions and more, we are joined by two industry experts. With me today are Ale Tobolski, who is the head of diversity, equity and inclusion Latin America at Johnson and Johnson, and Raashi Sikka, who is the vice president of global diversity inclusion at Ubisoft. So thank you both for joining us today for our own brave conversation. And I’d like to kick it off by giving both of you the opportunity to give me and my listeners a brief introduction to who you are and what you do. So Raashi, I am going to ask that you kick us off.

Raashi Sikka: Awesome. Thank you, Larry. Thank you for, for having me here for this great conversation as you call it. My name is Raashi Sikka. I am the vice president of global diversity inclusion and accessibility at Ubisoft. My pronouns are she/her. I’m also the co-founder of a boutique diversity, equity and inclusion consulting practice called The Inclusion Company. I am originally from New Delhi, India, but I’ve lived and worked in different parts of the world.

I consider myself a third culture kid and that’s some of what I take into doing this work. I’m currently based in Paris. I just moved here about two and a half, three months ago. And one of my big ambitions for this year is to learn French. So that’s, that’s a little bit about me. I’m excited for this conversation.

Larry Baker: Awesome. Thank you so much, Raashi. I’m hoping that you get that opportunity to learn French as well. Ale. You’re up next? .

Alejandro Tobolski: Hi, Larry. Hi Raashi. And, and thank you for this opportunity. So I’m Alejandro Tobolski and I serve as the region lead in Latin America for diversity equity and inclusion at Johnson and Johnson. As you said I’ve been with J&J since 2003.

I held several leadership positions both here in the US where I live now, and then in South America. I’m originally from Argentina. I’m born and raised in Argentina and then I moved to Brazil, and then to the US, and I have been in my current role for five years now. My work is basically to ensure that the enterprise, the AI strategies are pulled through and implemented.

And my work is around providing expertise. Share internal and external best, best practices, and ensuring the regional relevancy of our enterprise AI strategy. So really happy to be here today.

Larry Baker: Awesome. Thank you so much, Ale. So let’s dig into one of the first questions that I’d really like for you to consider, because the reAlety is that many people associate the racial reckoning in 2020 with the US because of the murder of George Floyd and the protests that happened in the United States that followed. But we know that this was, and it continues to be, a global conversation. So I’d like to start by getting a better understanding from your own experiences.

What was happening outside the US currently, and how was it similar or maybe even different to the conversations that were happening in the United States? So Ale, if you would kick us off with your response.

Alejandro Tobolski: Sure. So, you know, as, as a leader of the AI for LATAM, I’ve seen racist topic of focus for many years, right? Really after the murder of George Floyd, I mean as examples, like, so Google search for Black Lives Matters in Brazil, reached an all time high in 2020, right. So you can see things like that. Anti-racism search reached an all time high in Mexico during the same time. So it had a huge impact.

And in addition to that, we, as a company, nearly 60% of our employees in Latin America in this case, had conversations with colleagues about racial injustice. So we, you held a series of conversations that we call, “raise your voice sessions”. So while our strategy is a global one at J&J we know it must be locally relevant and locally executed because what you said, I mean, these topics had a lot of relevance at local levels in different ways. Our global strategy or strategy pillars, if you will, are about advancing a culture of inclusion and building a diverse workforce for the future provide really a strong foundation and enable us to pivot really in order to meet the evolving need of our patients, consumers, employees, and the community. We are constantly evolving.

And when this hit in 2020 because of, as you said, the murder of George Floyd, we really acted, and again, depending on the country, the history, the culture, the many differences, we’ve seen different things happening at, at different countries.

Larry Baker: Yeah, Ale, thank you so much for that. I love that perspective that your organization is taking that even though it may be US centric that you have the realezation that there needs to be local conversations had as well. So thank you so much for that insight. Raashi, how about you from your experiences? You know, what was happening outside the US currently and how was it either similar or different to the conversations that were happening in the US?

Raashi Sikka: It’s a great question. And, and I think to contextualeze my answers, some of the answers that I give, they draw from my experience prior to joining Ubisoft. I joined Ubisoft a little over a year ago. So a couple of months after, George Floyd’s murder and the Black Lives Matter movement, which truly became global.

So I speak from my experience before my experience as a consultant and a DE&I practitioner, the conversations on race were always happening. Right. They were happening from my vantage point. They were just not happening in the places where they’re happening now or after George Floyd’s murder in the same way.

The focus on these topics has become immense. Boardrooms, corporate leadership CEOs coming together. And it’s a reckoning of sorts, right. Where people come together and say, “This is happening”. This is happening in our organizations. This is happening in society and we haven’t given it the due that we should have in the best.

That’s where I think the conversation flipped. These conversations were happening in communities of color, but they weren’t necessarily as mainstream as they are now. And that’s the ship that I’ve seen. And, you know, Ale spoke about Google search in Brazil and in Mexico, one of the other pieces that I noticed was the demand, the increased demand in work for DE&I consultants across the board, especially outside of America.

Right. Where all of a sudden everyone’s like, “wait, we have to have these discussions. We don’t know how”. So I think that’s another interesting comparison to make.

Larry Baker: Yeah, that, that’s a great point, Raashi. You touched upon something about the fact that, you know, these conversations were always happening in communities of color.

It’s just that now they’re starting to be more highlighted in the workplace. And with that being the realety of where we are today, I am pretty sure having understanding of cultural implications in regards to, you know, a lot of different things. I’d like to know how do you think some of these cultural differences have made the approach to this conversation unique in global communities that you’re familiar with or that you’re a part of, or are they unique? So Raashi, I’ll ask you to start. What are some of those cultural differences that have made this approach to having this conversation a little bit more difficult or not?

Raashi Sikka: So there are commonaleties, there are similarities, but there are differences. And in doing this work as a DE&I practitioner at a global scale, One of the key principles that I lean on is making it local, right?

In order for these conversations, and after that, actions to be sustainable and impactful, you have to be relevant. Your message needs to resonate. and people need to see and understand how it impacts them in their spheres of influence. So I think that piece around making it local is extremely, extremely important.

And Ale spoke to that, you know, a little bit. The conversation on race takes oftentimes different, it can seem in a pure different, especially at surface level. But when you start thinking about it from the intersection of socioeconomic differences, color of skin and colorism in some parts of the world and other intersections, you’re able to unpack.

How do you meet your audience? How do you make sure that the conversation you’re having is truly resonating with the group that you’re discussing this with? So 100% being able to take a local approach for a topic that is global in nature is extremely important to making sure that this sticks and you’re able to make progress in the long run.

Larry Baker: Yeah, that’s a great point Raashi, because you know, I really like how you clarified that, you know, at least in my experiences. a lot of individuals that are not from America, tend to think that this is just a problem in America. So when you mention that concept of colorism, that has more of a universal appeal or getting into what you’re talking about, relevant local type of topic. So that’s an excellent point to bring to the table. Ale, same question to you. I want you to hop in, tell me about how some of those cultural differences, maybe even in Latin America have made the approach to having this conversation unique.

Alejandro Tobolski: I would say, Raashi made a point that it’s super relevant and very relevant specifically.

In Latin America, which is race based conversations are often mixed with socioeconomic status conversation. In Latin America that’s the case. And in most cases, that’s where the conversation starts right at that level. Then you have to dive deeper into the specific issues, because in many countries, race definitions, it’s not as clear as it is in the US, right?

For different reasons. Now that being said, I think you probably know that Brazil is kind of an exception to that because Brazil is the largest country in the region. More than 200 million people live there. And more than 50% of the population identify themselves as blacks or mixed race.

So in Brazil, the race conversation, it’s a lot more defined than in other countries in the region. But then if you go to my country of origin, Argentina, it’s a lot mixed with socioeconomic status and same in Mexico or even Colombia. So I think it is, as Raashi said, it has to be locally relevant and defined by.

I guess these high level conversations are kind of the same, but they manifest themselves at a deeper level in a different way because of the makeup of each country, the history, the culture, the country, etc.

Larry Baker: So Ale, basically what you’re, if I can paraphrase or if I’m understanding you correctly, it’s finding that point of commonalety so that you can then dig deeper into the much needed conversations that you need to have.

Alejandro Tobolski: Absolutely. That’s exactly Right.

Raashi Sikka: If I may, I think there’s something really important in, in what Ale spoke about right now about history. Yeah. I think the understanding the history of the specific country. Yeah. And the histories that have been right is extremely important in unpacking some of these conversations on race, you know, Larry, you spoke about the perception that this is an American thing and I, I use air quotes as I say that. That’s something, especially in doing this work being based in Europe, it’s something I hear all the time. Yeah. I hear it less now in the last two years. But it is something that you hear quite often.

And when you start understanding what that means, you know, you go back into history, right? Why is it hard in many countries to have this conversation on race because the construct of race doesn’t necessarily appear in the same way as it does in the US. So understanding what that looks like, and then being able to have discussions is something that, you know, I’m sure Ale and, and I, and others who are listening to this call would agree to.

Larry Baker: Raashi. I’m so glad that you said that because part of my fundamental belief in regards to even understanding someone’s situation is that you need to understand that history. And I think that in so many cases, specifically in the United States, that conversation is trying to be exterminated, for lack of a better term, because I think that once people truly get that history understanding, then we can move forward.

Because if you don’t understand the history, you’re bound to repeat it. And we don’t want the same mistakes that happened in the past to continue to resurface as we move to a better future. So I’m a hundred percent in agreement that establishing that history is going to be core to anything that we do to move forward.

So thank you so much for sharing that. Okay. Raashi, I’m gonna put you right back on the spot and talk to me about, because it seems like you have a lot of experience going to a lot of different countries. And I wanna know how are you personally pushing yourself and others out of their comfort zone when speaking on these global race based conversations?

What are some tips?

Raashi Sikka: Well, as DI practitioners, I think one of the things that we often tell folks that we work with is you have to get comfortable being uncomfortable. Right. And you’ve gotta practice what you preach. So that’s, that’s really my journey. Right. And doing this work, approaching it with that lens of curiosity

of, I don’t know everything, and I possibly cannot know everything. Right. So when I start working with a new country, a new culture, one of the first things I need to do is understand the culture, understand the context, understand the political situation in that country or in that region cause that has a tremendous impact in how this work can or cannot be done. What are the outspoken explicit rules, what are the implicit rules. So really approaching this work with that lens of curiosity and being open to learning, challenging yourself, challenging your own norms and beliefs and getting truly, just getting comfortable being uncomfortable is really how I show up and do this work.

When I started doing DE&I work, I was in a regional role as well covering Europe, East Africa for Uber, expanded that to Asia Pacific and then into a global role. And with each of those, you know, new portfolios, I had an opportunity to really learn about these conversations and these topics from the lens of a different culture.

And the thing that helped me throughout was that sense of curiosity and really immersing myself to the greatest extent possible in the culture and asking all the questions that I possibly could to help me frame my understanding.

Larry Baker: Yeah. That’s a great piece of advice, Raashi, the whole curiosity, right?

I think that when you are trying to engage in another culture, another country, coming in with that sense of curiosity allows for, in my opinion, it allows for folks to give you the grace that you need to have when you engage in these conversations. Because you hit it right on the head, you, we don’t know everything, right.

We’re in these roles and we’re asked to do these things. But the realety is we can’t possibly know every single culture. So every day we are pushing ourselves to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. And I absolutely agree with you that that approach of being curious, it allows people to give you the grace to make the mistakes that you’re going to make as you begin this process. So thank you so much for that insight. Ale, your turn. I need to know. Tell me, tell me, tell me Ale. How are you personally pushing yourself and others out of that comfort zone?

Alejandro Tobolski: So, I mean, I was thinking, I was thinking that probably I would say that these conversations are not out of my comfort zone, but I think that a better definition is what Raashi said.

I’ve learned to put myself, I have learned to be comfortable being uncomfortable. I think that’s the right definition. I think for people like us, these conversations are part of our job. Something we do. And we do it because we are incredibly passionate about it. So in that way, you create that comfort in being uncomfortable.

But for me, it’s about one thing is that I always use as a definition of the work we do, which is, progress over perfection. You have to learn all the time. You have to keep moving. You have to, you have to be flexible. You have to be very vulnerable and open to learn and open to tell your story.

And through that, you can push yourself and you can help put others out of their comfort zone. If you open yourself up, if you tell your story, if you are vulnerable and you keep learning that will help you, and as you said, learn a lot. We at J&J, we have taken that approach a lot, which is, education and awareness that helps with these conversations and that helps to create a bit more comfortable conversations even when they sometimes put people out of the comfort zone.

Larry Baker: Yeah. I’ve just picked the phrase that I’m going to steal from you Ale, progress over perfection.

Larry Baker: I mean, that resonates with me so much.

I definitely appreciate you sharing that and I’m going to steal it for my own. So Ale, you did talk about some of the things that J&J is doing. And I, you know, I have the privilege of working with that organization on many projects and assignments. And I absolutely appreciate the commitment and the work that’s being put forth. So I want to get your insights Ale in regards to how can these global organizations continue to work towards having race based conversations within the broad range of all of these different identities that might necessitate us having different approaches to the conversation.

So how do you think as J&J, what’s been their experiences. Yeah.

Alejandro Tobolski: I think, that’s a great question and yeah, we we’ve been very lucky to work with you, with LCW over the years. And I think you’re gonna really, the things that I’m gonna talk about are gonna resonate with you obviously, but you know, at J&J we have our kind of global strategy that guide us all the time. And we have what we call our credo conversations, right, which is our north star. And we have created guides to have courageous conversations. We have unconscious bias training and many other resources that we have. But then you have to, in order to, for them to be of value outside of the US at a local level, you have to make it locally relevant.

Right. So for example, just to give you an example in Brazil, we develop a series of 90 minute webinars on black history in Brazil called Afro Literacy. Right. And that’s how we did it and this was back in 2019. We started in 2019. That’s how we started to learn as an organization. And as we were discussing with Raashi before about the importance of history and how history informs what’s happening today.

Right. And making that connection is always extremely important. We launched mentoring programs exclusively for black employees. We developed additional resources. So we, with other companies, we also discuss best practices, share call to actions with employees. For example, we launched an antiracist commitment in Brazil signed by senior leaders. I’m shared with all employees as a call to action. So LATHRA, which is our employee resource group in Brazil, initiated kind of conversations with different departments at J&J to share best practices and to identify actions that can be taken to create a more diverse and inclusive culture.

Right? So continuously trying to adapt and create new things. Another good example in the way we encourage race based conversation is through something we launched that is called Exploring Our Diversity. It’s basically a culture and immersion series that we launched in 2021.

Kind of, and you know, we work a lot with culture and immersion with you guys. But this is kind of a tweak, which is more like self-guided type of learning platform with it before, blacks in the US, then we move to Asian in the US. Now we are developing Latin and Hispanic in the US.

So again, I mean, depending on the need, we keep constantly evolving and developing new content.

Larry Baker: Ale, you know, that whole concept of J&J sharing best practices with other companies. I think that is so key because I have the absolute pleasure of working with multiple organizations that are facing the exact same challenges.

And I do believe that some organizations feel is that it’s unique to them. And the realety is. All of these organizations are going through the same thing. So the fact that at J&J you are already saying, “hey, I know we can’t be the only ones that are going through this. Let’s see what so and so, and such and such is doing”.

And I like the approach of not just limiting that interaction to individuals that are in your industry. That is so key. That is so critical that there’s nothing wrong with sharing resolutions to problems that you face, because the more that we make it aware that it is possible, it encourages others.

So that’s amazing. And I’ve always appreciated that about J&J right.

Alejandro Tobolski: Just a quick comment there. And I think relevant to what you said. I mean, these issues that we face will never be solved if we are not willing to go beyond our walls. Right. And that’s what we are trying to.

Larry Baker: If I had the little hand clap emoji, you would’ve seen that coming across the screen right now. I agree wholeheartedly with that statement as well. Raashi, I want you to jump in there. Talk to me about how can global organizations continue to work towards having these conversations with all of these different identities.

What are some of the different approaches that they may need to consider when having these conversations?

Raashi Sikka: Yeah it’s a great question. I really appreciate what Ale and you spoke about Larry. This work is not gonna be solved by one organization doing it, right. This is gonna take all of us coming together, sharing, learning, and doing this work together.

And that’s one of the things I love about the space of DE&I practitioners across the world. Is that sense of sharing in community. Right. So podcasts of this nature are just so helpful in joining some of those dots. But to kind of answer your question, you know, one of the things that I’m keen on seeing, especially for organizations who have started this work more recently, so not necessarily J&J and others who’ve been doing this work for much longer for decades now, but for organizations who have recently embarked on this work is how do you move from having conversation to action? And that’s the place that I wanna see commitments. And I wanna see all the beautiful texts and communication that’s gone out in the past two years to truly come into action. And sometimes what I’ve noticed in my work is there is a lot of momentum.

And we all wanna capitaleze on this, this momentum, but you get to this place where you just don’t know what to do and, and it’s inertia. And what I share with folks that I work with, both in my consulting work and in my job at Ubisoft, with leaders is it’s one action. Right?

Do that one action today and you start building upon that and that’s why, you know what Ale spoke about progress over perfection, is something I say a lot at work, and I think it’s something that resonates with us DI Practitioners, because the work is never done, right. So you have to make those step changes before, you know, you see massive success.

So it could be that one conversation that you’ve been putting off to have, because it’s uncomfortable. It could be sponsoring an individual in your organization who you want to have a conversation with but haven’t gotten around to doing that just yet because of something else. It could be listening to that podcast or doing that workshop that, you know, you’re learning and development or your DI team have recommended. It could be reading that article, those things that you know are on your list of things to do, but you don’t get around to doing it because life happens is what I would say. I would like to see organizations and specifically leadership teams and those in positions of power, to start doing and start doing regularly, you have to build up that muscle. So for me, I wanna see more action. I wanna move from talk to action, especially for those organizations that have embarked on this journey more recently.

Larry Baker: Yeah, Raashi. I appreciate that so much and because I think so many folks look at this as this unsolvable issue. Right. And because there’s so many approaches that you can take, it’s almost as if they become paralyzed to do anything. So I love how you break it down and say, take one action. Right. What did you learn today that you can immediately apply to do one thing and build up that momentum so that you can then begin to see those wins repeat themselves?

So, absolutely. I appreciate.

Raashi Sikka: And one thing, if I can add to that at a structural level, especially coming from the context of Europe, right. Where the conversation on race and sometimes the inertia from moving to action is real is because of the regulatory landscape. Right? We don’t have data.

There is the race construct. As Ale mentioned earlier, the definitions are not the same, right? The ability to gather data is not the same. So I think as organizations, especially for folks listening to this conversation outside of the US, or Brazil, or South Africa, or Canada, where, you know, you have data fields and you’re able to gather data more morAlestically how do you move from not having data to having data, to being able to show progress and have, you know, more meaningful and sustained change? Is start collecting anonymous, self identify, self ID data from your teams. So you can start somewhere. You have a benchmark. You have an understanding of what just diversity in your organization, you know, looks like.

Larry Baker: You need to know what your current state is when you’re trying to get to your desired state. Yeah, that’s awesome.

Alejandro Tobolski: So, Larry, if I, if I can build upon what Raashi said, I think it’s extremely important. Maybe kind. From a success factors, what we have identified at J&J, in terms of continue the work, right. One of them is I think I actually mentioned that we have to have the right tone at the top.

That is really key. You have to have your CEO, your senior leaders, and they have to demonstrate their commitment and they have to drive this as an organizational priority. It’s not the DEI department that is gonna be kind of moving the needle. If we don’t do it as an organizational priority, kind of as a business priority.

Right. I think the second thing, I’m building upon the metrics and all that. It is important to have your kind of evidence based, your strategy embedded into system and processes to drive equity. Those are the things that you have to change constantly and make it work, obviously, communications change management, but then you must also measure what you do to drive accountability. And that’s where I think Raashi’s point is critical. And I think we, as practitioners and organizations, we are evolving towards this self ID, mostly outside of the US, which we face still some delays but working on that. Right. And really at the end of the day, I think it is critical to focus on outcomes and not, I mean, you have to, you have to have your short term activities aligned with the long term outcomes. If you do that and you keep working on that, then your teams are gonna start moving, but it’s, again, it’s a marathon, right?

It’s something that it’s gonna take a long time.

Larry Baker: Absolutely. And you know what Raashi, I think I want you to help some of my listeners understand an extremely important point that you brought out. You talked about how you can’t really gather that data in Europe. Can you elaborate on some of the reasons behind that and some of the hurdles that that has created for you in regards to the work that you do?

Raashi Sikka: I think that could be a whole other podcast in itself. Well, I’ll try and sum it up, but it really could be. So, within the context of Europe, because of some of the histories and the political landscape and regulatory barriers that exist, collecting personal identification data is quite difficult for a variety of those reasons that I just stated above.

However, there are some workarounds that are legal, of course, in that if you, as an organization, launch and build a GDPR compliant self-identification process whereby you create the systems and the processes for your team members, your employees to voluntarily share identity information about themselves with the company at their own discretion, you are then able to use that to understand what does the diversity demographics of your company look like and then build from there. And some of the work that Ale spoke about integrating that into your systems and processes is step two from when you have collected some of that information. So it is a fairly complex undertaking. It takes quite a lot of time in most organizations to build and launch due to the privacy GDPR legal requirements.

But it is something that more and more organizations are doing at this moment. And there’s been a surge of this, on this conversation, in countries outside of Europe, in the last two years.

Larry Baker: Good. Awesome. Thank you so much for breaking that down. Raashi so, as we, as we near our time of completion, I wanted to just make space for both of you to just give some final closing thoughts in regards to, you know, these conversations happening globally.

So I’ll give you an opportunity to just kind of sum up some of your main points and some of your main recommendations. So, Raashi, if you could go ahead and start and then Ale, I’ll ask you to close this out.

Raashi Sikka: So I think I’ll start with what gets measured gets done, right. And being able to have an understanding of the status quo, where your organization is today.

Having evidence based tactic strategies is extremely important. Numbers and metrics speak to team members and leaders at large. So what gets measured gets done is maybe my first one. The second is moving from conversation to action. We are and we have been over the last two years or so now, seen a lot of momentum in this space holistically, across social justice and diversity equity inclusion, and specifically on topics of race.

This is truly the moment for us to leverage and to turn that conversation and that momentum into action. So, especially for smaller organizations, especially for organizations that have just started on this journey, my big takeaway would be, get to action. Start making those in incremental changes today.

Don’t wait. Those would be my two main, do you want a third or is two fine?

Larry Baker: Raashi this is your moment. If you got three I’ll take three.

Raashi Sikka: I like three. So I’ll give you a third one. The third is make it local. If you’re doing this work. Sitting in the US or sitting in the UK or sitting wherever in the world you are.

And you’re trying to, you know, do this work at a global scale. You will only be successful when you make it local. That’s when it’s gonna be relevant. And that’s when it’s going to resonate with your stakeholders and your folks on ground.

Larry Baker: I am so glad that you decided to take three. That is amazing. Thank you so much. Ale, your turn closing thoughts, share with us your insight about how do you do this in a global environment.

Alejandro Tobolski: I have kind of a problem because if, if I have to say, how would I do it? I would have to repeat exactly what Raashi said. I mean, it’s exactly what she said. No, but really, I mean, very, very similar ideas, very similar. Way of approaching, right. Evidence based the accountability, the metrics focusing on long term outcomes, making it local.

I think all of that is exactly the way I see it. The way we develop it. I would then say instead of repeating that I would go back to the progress over perfection. Right? Keep moving, help the organization move. The more we can help our teams to kind of embrace the conversations by encouraging engagement and expansion of their knowledge, on this topic that is very, very fast, really, the more we will make diversity, equity, and inclusion, something that belongs to everyone.

And when we make it something that belongs to everyone is when we keep moving forward and keep changing and making it better.

Larry Baker: Ale, I think that first of all, thank you so much for that insight because comforting for me to know, is that the very fact that Raashi and you had the similar foundational points to share with individual that shows that in this field, we have this line of sight, right?

That we have a similar approach. That we are speaking the same type of language to the organizations that we work with. And for me, that’s extremely encouraging. Sometimes we as DE&I practitioners, we need to come together to hear that, “okay. I’m moving in the right direction”. So thank you both for that..

Thank you both for this conversation. I absolutely can sense the passion that you both have in the work that you do. And it’s encouraging to know that you are going forth with this understanding to bring that to the organizations that you work with. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for your participation in this session.

The transparency I absolutely think is going to be something that our listeners are going to appreciate. And enjoy. So again, thank you so much for your participation on today’s session.

Raashi Sikka: Thank you. A pleasure.

Alejandro Tobolski: Yeah, absolutely.

And to all of you that are listening, we wanna know what were your biggest takeaways from this conversation? Please share them with us on Facebook, Twitter, or LinkedIn at language and culture worldwide or LCW.