Podcast

Inspired by the 2023 theme for International Women’s Day—Embracing Equity—we’re taking a look inward to highlight the lived experiences of our diverse team.

In this live-streamed episode of Brave Conversations with LCW, Host Larry Baker was joined by LCW colleagues Alisa Kolodizner (LCW Co-Owner & Managing Partner) and Tamara Thorpe (LCW Principal Consultant, Real Mentors Network Founder) as they reflected on their entrepreneurial journeys—including motivations for beginning their career path, barriers they faced as women in business, and takeaways for supporting women colleagues.

Show Notes & Highlights

05:12  Tamara shares her experience growing up in an entrepreneurial family

07:50  Alisa tells us how immigrating to the United States shaped her journey

11:22  Alisa and Tamara discuss the importance of having mentors and a support network when starting out

14:25  Tamara on embracing unknowns on your constantly evolving business

17:36  Tamara speaks to the challenges of being a Black woman entrepreneur

21:39  Alisa reflects on her desire not to be a minority in her business

26:29  Alisa shares stories about the importance of resilient women role models

29:49  Tamara advocates for supportive networks for women as a mentor herself

32:58  Tamara debunks myths about starting a business

35:16  Alisa explains the importance in advocating for yourself through different parts of your journey

Show Transcript

Larry Baker: Hello everyone, and welcome to Brave Conversations with LCW Live. I am your host, Larry Baker. I use the pronouns of he and him, and I am absolutely thrilled to welcome you to this special edition of our livestream series as we are joining you on International Women’s Day.

To share some reflections, we two women business owners and entrepreneurs that we are so lucky to have as part of our very own LCW team. Now, for those of you that may be unfamiliar with LCW, we are a global DE&I training, consulting, and translation firm that partners with organizations to help them develop global mindset and to help them develop their skills and their systems to succeed in a culturally diverse world.

Today I am extremely fortunate to be joined by Alisa Kolodizner—who is our co-owner and managing partner and the founder of Cordelia Capital—and Tamara Thorpe—who is a principal consultant with LCW and Real Mentors Network founder. I will have them do a more formal introduction in a moment.

But before we do that, we want to take a moment to highlight the chat function that’s available across today’s livestream so that you can give your reactions and questions throughout the entire conversation. Please do us a favor and put your comments in the chat, and we will answer them throughout the conversation.

So with that being said, I’m going to start by having Alisa give us an introduction and then Tamara, you can jump right in afterwards.

Alisa Kolodizner: Thank you, Larry. Hello, everyone. My name is Alisa Kolodizner. I am the managing partner/co-CEO of LCW, and I’m also the founder of Cordelia Capital.

A little bit about myself… I became an entrepreneur fairly early in my life. I was about five years old when I first started selling bracelets; I didn’t realize that that journey was a journey that I can take at that age. I went to work in corporate America right after school and then went back to the entrepreneurial journey a little over three years ago now.

Larry Baker: Awesome. Thank you so much, Alisa. Tamara, you’re up. Please do an introduction and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Tamara Thorpe: Thanks so much, Larry, for the invitation to be here for International Women’s Day. As you have said, my name is Tamara Thorpe, and I am one of the principal consultants at LCW.

But I am also someone who’s been a longtime entrepreneur. My most recent venture is the Real Mentors Network. Mentoring is something that I’m particularly passionate about, and so we’ve built a platform that brings mentors and mentees together. All of this work is really built upon the work that I’ve done in the last 20 years around building thriving teams and healthy organizations. I’m really helping organizations explore concepts of culture to create thriving cultures and productive and effective leaders.

And so I’m happy to be here today to talk about my own entrepreneurial journey.

Larry Baker: Fantastic, Tamara. Thank you and Alisa for being with us today, and I really wanna dig into that last statement that you just made, Tamara. So since you are here and excited to share your entrepreneurial story, I’m gonna ask that you kick us off and maybe tell us some things that might have motivated you to have this mindset. Tell us a little bit about your story and then some of those motivations, if you would.

Tamara Thorpe: Thanks. It was a blessing and a curse; I grew up with parents who were entrepreneurs, and so that exposed me at a very early age to what it’s like to have an idea and realize it into a business and also know that that experience comes with highs and lows.

But I think for me, growing up seeing that exemplified in both my mom and my dad were really modeled for me what I have loved about being an entrepreneur: the creativity and the innovation and the autonomy and independence. For me, it was always a matter of having my own business. It wasn’t will I, it was really just a matter of when.

When I was doing my undergraduate—while I thought about all the possible careers—I had always had a vision for being an entrepreneur. So even in my first career when I was teaching I had also started my own event planning business. And that was really the beginning of always kinda having a side hustle.

Then it was in 2011 that I really made a commitment to having a business that I was focusing all my efforts and energy into, and that’s when I started my work as the Millennials Mentor, where I was providing coaching and training to really support the next generation of leaders.

But it really was that inspiration of having entrepreneurs model that journey. I know for myself, I feel like I have of been very prepared for the highs and lows that come with being an entrepreneur.

Larry Baker: Tamara, thank you so much for that insight. You reiterated the old cliche that “how can they be it if they don’t see it?” So because that was modeled for you by your parents, it was almost like you said, not if but when you were going to become an entrepreneur. Thank you so much for sharing.

Alisa, it’s your turn. I know you touched upon it a little bit earlier how as a very young person you were selling bracelets, but let’s dig into your entrepreneurial story. Tell us what motivated you to become an entrepreneur.

Alisa Kolodizner: Sure, and thank you as well for asking that question and for also holding space for this conversation.

It’s interesting because it took me a little bit to truly pinpoint where did that entrepreneurial influence come from. My family and I immigrated from the former Soviet Union. I came here as a child, and that really was true entrepreneurship. My family came to the United States, each of them with a suitcase, and they started over.

I didn’t, growing up, identify that that was the terminology associated to entrepreneurship until further along, but what was interesting is I always observed it. So my grandmother raised me; I watched her be an entrepreneur in the United States, where she had to start over. She was a pediatrician in the former Soviet Union and came here, didn’t speak the language, and had to make means while my mom went to school and my dad was working full-time so that they could gimme a better life.

I started working pretty early on just because I wanted to be independent. I wanted to be able to provide for myself—didn’t wanna be a burden I guess is the best way to sometimes think of it. And so I had multiple jobs as early as the age of five, and then during school I used to have a couple jobs while I was going to school. At one point in college I had five different jobs, and then when I graduated, I learned about the aspect of having multiple revenue streams.

That’s actually how I started knowingly being an entrepreneur, right out of school. A friend and I started a consulting organization focused on multiple revenue streams, and at the same time I also entered financial services. It was interesting because I started my career in corporate, but at the same time also started my entrepreneurial journey.

Unfortunately had to stop the entrepreneurial one for a bit, just because working in the financial service industry, there’s quite a bit of what you can and cannot do. But what I wanted to do was always how can I maintain the ability to also look at multiple revenue streams and having more control over what my day-to-day looks like.

Larry Baker: Okay, awesome. Thank you so much, Alisa, for sharing that for me.

Now, both of you gave me some really nice stories, and it seems like everything was so smooth and it just ran so effectively. But I’m pretty sure that there were some things that each of you wishes that you would’ve known at the very beginning of your journey.

Before I open that door up to you to respond to that, I’m gonna ask Alisa to kick it off first, and then Tamara, you can follow up. What were some of those things, Alisa, that you really wish that someone would’ve told you when you started out being an entrepreneur?

Alisa Kolodizner: Well, I don’t have to say this, but it’s tough, right? It’s interesting because I did not grow up knowingly with entrepreneurs, so this aspect of being an entrepreneur wasn’t really spoken about within my household. It took me some time to gain the confidence to take together my skillsets and my passion in order to truly be an entrepreneur full-time.

You would say that, “Well, you started so early. You were five, right? But then you walked towards a different direction.” And it was always there—it was always something that I was very passionate about. I just didn’t necessarily know that my skillset and my passion can come together, and I could be an entrepreneur.

What I would’ve loved to have told my younger self was to take that chance and to find folks around you that not only support you but can also be there for you, be mentors for you, provide you examples so that you can fulfill your passion.

So that’s what I ended up finding, but it came when I consciously made the effort. It wasn’t right in front of me. It may have been, but until you speak it into being real, you’re not going to surround yourself or find the folks in your network to support you and to propel you into that journey. That’s what learned a little bit further.

Larry Baker: Awesome. Thank you so much, Alisa.

So Tamara, this is probably right in your wheelhouse because I think that Alisa has set you up really nicely. She said, “Boy, I really wish that I would’ve known about mentoring relationships.” So even though it was innate in your upbringing, what were some of the things that you wished that you would’ve known very early in your journey becoming an entrepreneur?

Tamara Thorpe: Yeah. I appreciate Alisa sharing that cuz I think one of the things I did know was that I didn’t have to go it alone, and I was able to surround myself with small advisory groups, which were friends, colleagues, mentors, people who could help me and support me through that journey.

And that has been so instrumental. Sometimes when we set out to go on an entrepreneurial journey, we have our own ideas and we might be fearful to reach out for help, but—as Alisa mentioned—having that support makes all the difference in the world.

But the things that I didn’t know, there were three. First was that there were really things that I was going to have to learn. There were things that I didn’t know that I was going to have to learn. Basic accounting, that’s not in my wheelhouse. That was something that I had to really go out and learn, and then eventually learn that there’s only so much I need to know and can do. Then eventually, you hire an expert. Knowing how much you need to know and the right time to bring in an expert, that is always a challenge but an important part of the process.

So knowing what I don’t know, that was one of the challenges and a part of the ongoing journey, which is also the second thing. I think the second thing that has been really helpful to me was embracing the constant evolution of your entrepreneurship or your business. As we sometimes think of it very static, you might start with an initial idea, but over time that idea will evolve and grow and shift and change. And being able to embrace that I think is really important.

I think one of the hardest or most painful entrepreneurial journeys I learned was how to talk about money and set my worth, and I think that’s one of the things that women more often than not are not taught to talk about money or evaluate their expertise and their experience numerically. Early in my consulting, I was really undercutting myself, and it wasn’t until a client told me one of the reasons they didn’t consider a proposal was because I was charging too little. And because I was charging so little, they didn’t put value on what I was offering, and that was an extremely expensive and painful loss.

But it taught me that I had to learn to talk about money. I had to learn to identify my own worth and value and be comfortable asking for what I believe I’m worth, even if people push back.

Larry Baker: Yeah. Tamara, thank you so much for sharing that insight, but your comment has led me to wanna ask you to take it to a different level of intersectionality, if you will. Because I want you to talk a little bit more about those challenges and barriers in your journey, but I want you to put on the lens of the additional responsibility as being a Black woman entrepreneur. So can you touch upon that just a little bit more in regards to your challenges?

Tamara Thorpe: Yeah, I think it’s been an interesting aspect of the journey. Initially, as I said, because I had parents who were entrepreneurs, I never really thought about what might be external forces at play that could impact my experience. Once I started integrating myself into the kind of entrepreneurial ecosystem that exists both within my community and across the United States—right into that world of venture capitalists and startup funds—I realized that that space is not an entirely inclusive space, and that as I was pitching business ideas, pitching programs that getting my voice heard and recognized was extremely challenging.

There are a lot more resources out there for white male entrepreneurs and that they are far more likely to get the kind of credibility or benefit of the doubt for investors than women are, and then women of color, right? So when we look at the numbers in the startup space, we know that Black women are the least likely to receive VC, right? I mean, the number of pitch competitions that I submitted applications for and was denied, denied, denied. And I can speak in my own community, I could go to fives startup pitch events and see the same five guys pitching their business and winning money every time and having people say, “Tamara, you’re great. We love your business. We love what you’re doing,” but it never showed up in terms of stage-time, facetime, financial investment.

Today, I think we’re seeing some changes. Google Startups now has an incredible new startup program specifically for Black founders. We’re seeing things like Glamazon and the Glammies that are creating a virtual platform for Black business owners.

I guess saying “unexpected” feels a little naive, right? But certainly it has always felt like there’s tons of money out there that lots of folks are getting, so it was really quite surprising to me that the amount of effort into building those relationships, creating those networks… eventually it paid off for me, certainly. But there were a lot of doors that were closed with no explanation that over time, I realized I need to start really honing in and building relationships that were gonna advance my career cuz there were a lot of doors that just weren’t open.

Larry Baker: Awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate that, Tamara. So Alisa, I’m gonna ask you to jump in. Same type of question, but here’s one thing that I do want to share with our audience: we understand that there isn’t a universal experience for women in business, right? These are just both of your perspectives when it comes to your journey. So we know that’s the framework of where your answer is coming from.

We appreciate the diverse perspectives with this particular question when we talk about what are some of the challenges or barriers that you faced, Alisa, as you went on your journey.

Alisa Kolodizner: Yeah, thank you. And Tamara, as you were speaking, it was reminding me of some of the experiences that I saw when I was raising capital.

So as the owner of Cordelia Capital, part of what I was doing is looking to gain investors, right? So gain investors that would invest into my acquisition, and what was interesting is… well, the first thing was all of the investors that I talked to were white men, and it was very difficult for me to find women folks of color to be my investors. And that’s actually one of the first times outside of financial services—where I spent the majority of my career prior to starting Cordelia Capital—where I started seeing the problem continue to persist.

And so I found myself in many different rooms where I honestly had to also say “no.” I knew that the terms that I was being given were not fair for me. I came into my entrepreneurial journey with Cordelia specifically at a more confident point in my life where I knew my worth, and so when I was being given terms that did not reflect what I knew my worth was I said “no.”

And there were also instances where I was told that investors weren’t interested in me because I wasn’t comfortable with what they were sharing. I wasn’t comfortable with becoming their employee. When I thought of the word “entrepreneur,” it wasn’t to be a minority owner of my own organization—it was to continue to be a majority owner. And what ended up happening for me with Cordelia Capital is the money that I raised was actually all from investors that were individuals.

So I thought initially that I had to go find it in venture capital, I had to go find it with the hedge fund, and what ended up happening is I realized after quite a few meetings is those weren’t the terms that I was comfortable with.

Larry Baker: Wow.

Alisa Kolodizner: Those weren’t necessarily the audience that had seen me before and what I was capable of. And so I moved on, and I moved on to working with investors that were individuals. And so all of my investors within Cordelia Capital, they aren’t companies. These are folks that either  are in financial services or I had had the opportunity of working with or were mentors to me throughout my career. I’m very fortunate that that that’s where my journey has taken me.

But it took some time. It took some time to get to the point where I built up that confidence. Prior to Cordelia Capital, I did work in financial services where I was the majority of the time the only woman in the room. And I coached financial advisors, I coached companies, independent advisory firms that were owned by white men, and I was typically the only woman in the room.

So it gave me this understanding that not only is this a statistic that exists, it’s factual and I’m living it. I came to the point where I wanted to change it, and so I wanted to be part of the solution and how to create spaces for everyone to be able to have the foundation to succeed.

So that’s a little bit about the journey and where it took me.

Larry Baker: Yeah. So, Alisa, I know that you mentioned that your family migrated here. Were there some specific challenges having English being a second language that kinda impacted your entrepreneurial journey? If so, can you kind of elaborate on that for me a little bit?

Alisa Kolodizner: Sure. I appreciate you asking that. It’s interesting because growing up I had quite a few experiences where I noticed how my grandmother was treated and my mom as well because they both have accents and how that impacted them. But also I grew up watching the resilience, and so my grandmother—and I always bring up the story cause it means a lot to me—but I didn’t get into a school that was a lottery system, and it was intended for more affluent folks in that neighborhood. And so my grandmother took me by the hand and took me to the school, brought my report card, went to the principal and said, “This is my granddaughter. I raised her. She’s a straight-A student. You need to let her into your school.”

And that experience really shaped me. And just in general, the way I observed her is just that, and that resilience really is critical in the life of entrepreneur. Being an entrepreneur, a lot of times you are walking down a path that is the first time you’ve walked through it and potentially the first time that anyone within your family or network has either. And so being comfortable with the unknown, is, is really important.

And so for me personally growing up with English being my second language, I didn’t speak English ‘til I was five, and watching that resilience within my own family—with my grandmother, with my mom who started over and became a doctor of pharmacy in the United States—and some of the experiences that both of them had either shared with me or I was with them when those experiences occurred.

They really strengthened my own confidence in my own abilities because I’m fortunate to have two very strong women that really were mentors to me. That definitely shaped my own ability, my confidence in taking the biggest risk, and that risk is the most rewarding on myself.

Larry Baker: Yeah. And Alisa, thank you so much for sharing that personal story. That perfectly embodies the whole concept of: if they don’t give you a seat at the table, bring the table. And you brought the chair too! Your grandma said, “No, no, no, no. I don’t know what you think. my granddaughter belongs here.” I love that type of support and someone to really believe in you.

So Tamara, it’s your turn. I want you to talk to us about… we talk a lot about people talking the talk but not being able to walk the walk. I want to hear from you, and of course Alisa as well, what can we do to support our women colleagues?

Tamara Thorpe: Yeah, as I said, we see a growing number of opportunities and platforms for women in business, yet it’s still quite small, right? If we’re looking in the world of investment and venture capitalists and where funds are going, the most recent stat is that out of all the funds, only 2.7% go  to women and less than 1% go to women of color.

Now as bleak as that may seem, I think that there’s a certain amount of bootstrapping that folks can do. We live in a time where people can be scrappy and agile and don’t need a lot of investment. I have built the Real Mentors Network with zero investment. It has come from investing my own funds, identifying my own resources, and being—what’s the word—innovative, and thoughtful, and planning.

Larry Baker: Resourceful.

Tamara Thorpe: Yeah, resourceful and taking the time. And part of the reason that I’m able to do that is because of the incredible network of people that I have around me. I know that both Alisa and I’ve used the word “mentoring,” but I cannot overstate how important it is to have mentors. And when you go to build a business, to take that idea and try to convert it into something, you can monetize a business that you can own and be proud of that having a network of people who are gonna support you in decision making, in ideating, in challenging your thinking and ideas to push you to think beyond what the original scope of your idea may have been that really helps you advance.

That’s really critical, and one of the reasons that I’ve created the Real Mentors Network is because people go, “Having a mentor is great. Where am I gonna get a mentor?” And I always say to folks, “You know, mentors are all around you. They’re people you’re already connected to.” And sometimes it’s a matter of formalizing that relationship and saying, “Hey, I’m about to take on this project, and I’m gonna really need some mentoring. Can I rely on you for the next three months, six months, to give me support and insights. And sometimes it is a matter of reaching out to people you don’t know. Before I built the Real Mentors Network, I’ve relied on platforms like LinkedIn to connect with other professionals who are doing the things I want to be doing and to find out how did they do it. How did they get started?

I think very often people think a couple of things—they have myths that “I can’t possibly create a business cuz it already exists.” That’s a myth. Think of all the places where you can go and get a hamburger. People are going to continue to make good hamburgers and sell hamburgers. You don’t have to have the only hamburger, you just have to have a good hamburger, right? And so you don’t need a completely unique idea—you just need a good product, a good version of it.

Also people believe that if they tell someone that that person’s gonna run away with their idea, and so they’ll hold on to their entrepreneurial idea. And that’s also a myth. Very rarely does that happen, right? More often than not, people support you in your ideas, and it really is inviting people to be a part of that journey.

And for us, when people come to us to be able to say, “Yes, I wanna support, I wanna help. I’m willing to be there and support you,” I think that there’s a real opportunity.

That also being said, there are growing programs to support women and particularly women of color in entrepreneurship, and I think that there’s an opportunity for us as people in our community to support those platforms.

Larry Baker: Yeah, absolutely. Yep.

Tamara Thorpe: To support those platforms either by going to their events, spreading the word about them, letting folks know that they exist. Because that sense of building community—whether you’re doing it locally in your network, whether you’re doing it nationally, globally, or virtually— having a network is really what is going to make a difference.

Larry Baker: Yeah. Absolutely it echoes with me, Tamara, when you talk about some of the challenges within our community is support a Black-owned business. It’s okay to do that, so I appreciate you sharing that insight.

Okay. Alisa, your turn. Tell us or tell the audience what can we do to support our women colleagues? What are your thoughts on that?

Alisa Kolodizner: Some of the things that I wanted to double-click on a little bit more is choosing who is your mentor. What I learned throughout my entrepreneurial journey is those mentors will also change. So as your journey evolves, as you are at different points in what your needs are, your mentors may change and that’s okay.

For me, a little bit to get comfortable with that—because initially I was so grateful that folks would be open to being mentors to me—it came to a point where I realized that sometimes the mentors that I started working with may become different as I go further down the entrepreneurial journey because everyone’s experiences are different. And depending on what my needs are as an entrepreneur, it’s okay to go to different people when you have different needs throughout that journey. So that’s one thing that I’ll state that I thought was very important throughout my journey.

Then the other one is, really being vocal about what you want. Because if you are not an advocate for yourself, if you are not stating, “Here’s what I’m looking to accomplish,” you can’t expect for people around you to know how to support you. And that was something that was really meaningful for me throughout my journey is that realization that unless I am making others aware of what I’m hoping to accomplish, they aren’t necessarily going to know how to support me and provide the resources that I may need—whether it’s introducing me to a mentor, which did happen when I started stating, “Here’s what I’m looking to accomplish.” It became, “Oh, let me introduce you to X, Y, and Z,” and I would take it from there. But if I hadn’t mentioned this was what I was looking to accomplish, it would’ve most likely not become an introduction to someone who did ultimately become a mentor to me.

The other piece I’ll state is it’s really important for folks to pursue what they’re both passionate about as well as finding that connection to their purpose, and people hear it. It’s when you are truly doing what is most meaningful to you. You state it into existence, right? You really talk about it more, and you’ll find yourself in that network. You will speak it into existence, I guess is one of the things that I’ve learned and thought through.

And then the last piece that I’ll state as well is the importance of follow up because I learned this earlier in my career. My skillset was always more so around sales. And so what I learned earlier in my career is the importance of follow up. Because you may have had the best conversation with someone and you may have stated exactly what you’re looking to accomplish, but after that conversation ended, they moved on with their day. And they moved on with what’s important to them in their day-to-day.

So if you are not following up, if you are not sending that email, encouraging that next conversation, asking that question, you can’t necessarily expect for someone to reach back out to you and express that interest. I would love for more folks to reach out to individuals to mentor, but what we also have to know as mentees that it is important to have those follow ups. It is important to always have those next steps because that is what will support you moving forward at the speed that you’d like. Instead of sitting there and waiting, it’s important also to proactively reach out.

Larry Baker: Awesome. Thank you so much, Alisa. Thank you so much, Tamara. This has been such an awesome conversation. I can’t think of a better way to kick off International Women’s Day, and I wanted to touch base with our audience just to let ’em know it doesn’t stop here.

We really hope that you take what you learned and share it with your friends, share it with your coworkers, even share it with family members, And if you want to know more about the Real Mentors Network, you can visit realmentors.net. If you want to partner with us at LCW to continue to have these conversations in your work, please absolutely let us know. You can contact LCW at languageandculture.com.

Thank you so much again for joining us, Alisa and Tamara. I think this has been a wonderful conversation, and I cannot wait to see what happens from this session. This has been Brave Conversations with LCW Live. Thank you so much. Thank you everyone.

Tamara Thorpe: Thank you, everyone.

Alisa Kolodizner: Thank you.

The pandemic led to a challenging 24+ months for everyone but especially for people of Asian and Pacific Islander descent. With the recent rise in anti-AAPI hate crimes in the U.S. and the COVID turmoil that impacted India and other regions, there’s been an increased interest in allyship and resources to support this community. But has it been enough? What can these events teach us about being better allies?

Culture Moments Host Larry Baker (he/him) is joined by Reap-n-leap Coaching and Consulting Executive Coach and DEI & Culture Change Consultant Peyina Lin-Roberts (she/her) and Intercultural Consultant Jessica Shao (she/her), who share their lived experiences as people of Asian and Pacific Islander descent and what they believe are good first steps to better supporting this diverse community.

After tuning in to the conversation, we encourage you to share your takeaways on Facebook, Twitter, or LinkedIn.

Show Notes & Highlights

7:59  Jessica and Peyina share events that impact their daily lives as Asian women

18:22  Peyina and Larry discuss how cultural difference is sometimes viewed as a threat

21:08  Peyina explains how racism pits marginalized communities against each other

27:02  The group analyzes cultural rifts that separate Black and Asian communities

36:25  Jessica describes the importance of empathy in allyship

39:31  Peyina points out the individual work behind authentic allyship

45:49  Peyina and Jessica share final thoughts and advice for DEI practitioners

Show Transcript

Larry Baker: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Culture Moments podcast. I’m your host, Larry Baker, and I am thrilled to have you join us for our second season called “Brave Conversations with LCW.” In these episodes, you’ll hear from a panel of guests from specific communities offering a range of perspectives on the past two years. We’ll hear about their own experiences as well as their insights on what has changed and, more importantly, what needs to change to move equity forward. As we all know, so much has shifted and changed over the past two years. And for many of us, we’re still in recovery from a very difficult 24 months.

On today’s episode of The Cultural Moments Podcast, we’ll be discussing what it means to be an ally for people of Asian and Pacific Islander descent. During 2021, anti-Asian hate crimes increased 339% across the United States, and remote Pacific countries and small islands face disproportionately high unemployment rates with limited access to production.

So what can these events teach us about being better allies, and what can we do to authentically support this community? To help us with this conversation, I’m joined by Peyina Lin-Roberts, who is an executive coach, DEO, and cultural change consultant at Reap-n-Leap Coaching and Consulting and Intercultural Consultant Jessica Shao, who will share their lived experiences as members of the Asian and Pacific Islander community. Welcome to the podcast today. What I’m gonna do is to quickly allow both of you to give a brief introduction to who you are and exactly what you do. Peyina, if you could start…

Peyina Lin-Roberts: Thank you, Larry. As Larry mentioned, I’m an executive coach and a diversity, equity, and inclusion consultant working with organizations to enable their culture change. Diversity, equity, and inclusion, or DEI, is also simultaneously about culture, right? How would I introduce myself? I’m a cisgender woman of Taiwanese descent who grew up in Guatemala and Costa Rica. Culturally, at some point in time I was more Tica— which is how you refer to Costa Rican—probably more Tica than Taiwanese culturally. Never quite ChaPeyina; ChaPeyina are the Guatemalan.

I’m also a mother and a wife in a mixed-race marriage, and my parents both lived in families that at some point experienced poverty of some form. My dad didn’t wear shoes to go to school, he would save his shoes so they wouldn’t get worn off and he’d put them on at school. My mom, at some point in time during her early adulthood, had to work multiple jobs to make ends meet right with the family. And I’m the first in my family to get a PhD, to marry outside of our race, and to be an executive coach and a DE consultant. I think there’s something about my sister who became a doctor… you know, maybe I should have been something of those expected roles.

What else? I think to know me, my belief system matters, and I truly believe that we can create a better world if we can embrace difference; challenge our assumptions, our blind spots; lead with heart and curiosity rather than judgment, and be open to evolving how we think, being in this constant willingness to develop ourselves. I think I will leave space for Jessica to introduce herself. I think there’s much more that I can share about, you know?

Larry Baker: No, that’s great. Thank you. That’s great, Peyina. Thank you so much. Jessica, how about you? Give us an introduction, and tell us who you are and what you do.

Jessica Shao: Yes, it’s hard to follow Peyina’s introduction. That was so robust and very, very fascinating. My name is Jessica Shao. I moved to the US with my family from rural China when I was at the age of close to 10, and we moved to San Francisco. I am what they considered a one-and-a-half generation Chinese American because I wasn’t born in the US, so I have quite a bit of connection still with the Chinese culture and in China, more than a typical Chinese American who is born here.

So my background… I’ve done some work in intercultural communication. I’m still trying to figure out what I do, Larry. My interest is in intercultural communications, and I’ve done some training with business managers whoare relocating overseas to China or Chinese managers coming to the US to talk to these managers about the different cultures and work cultures. My training is in international development, so I’ve lived in low-income countries and developing countries around the world working on poverty alleviation issues in different communities, mostly with Indigenous communities in parts of South America and in rural China. I’ve worked in the world of philanthropy, funding nonprofit organizations in the U.S. and sometimes overseas to work on issues around social justice.

Personally, I’m a mother of two young toddlers, and I’m in [what] I would say [is] considered intercultural marriage, although not interracial. My husband is Taiwanese American who grew up being immersed in the Taiwanese culture, and I am from the southern part of China in the Canton region or Guandong region, so I grew up being immersed in the Cantonese culture. We often have cultural clashes even though we are in the same race.

I’m really excited to be here, Larry. I’m really looking forward to the conversation that we’ll be having, to learning from you and from Peyina. I think it’s great that you guys are doing this and I’m privileged to be part of this conversation.

Larry Baker: Yeah, thanks so much for joining. And Jessica, FYI, when you’re married you tend to have cultural clashes even if it’s the same culture. Just as an FYI, to share that with you. (all laugh)

So I’m gonna start with you, Jessica, and I want you to think about the past two years, or past two years or so. What have been some of your most notable events impacting your daily lived experience?

Jessica Shao: There’s two that stand to mind. One is the Atlanta shooting of women of Asian descent who worked in massage parlors in Atlanta, and I think that was March in 2021. That was earth-shattering to me personally because as an Asian woman who goes to these massage parlors to get massages, I knew who these women are. I can picture who they are, and I get choked up even speaking about it. When I read the news, I couldn’t bear to read more in the details because personally it’s shaking me because that could have been me. I could have been one of those who just happened to be in the massage parlor and then got shot, or that could have been my mother. That’s something that’s still shaking me today as we speak, and it’s affecting me daily.

I think it’s more internal in the ways that it’s affecting me: internalizing what it means to be an Asian woman in the US and some of the stereotypes that I’ve long learned about in terms of stereotyping women to be submissive, to be more sexually promiscuous. I know that we’ve seen these in Hollywood movies back in the days, and for this to happen in 2021, which is—whoever can do the math—how many hundred years since 1860? It’s earth-shattering. It’s a couple of hundred years, and I feel like we’ve made so much progress as an Asian American community at large in terms of facing really covert discrimination, yet a lot of this is still bubbling inside the American psyche. And it’s becoming more overt to me. Being able to process that is very hard, Larry, and it’s still affecting me today. A lot of this is psychological.

A series of events as you’ve heard in the media… there’s harassments and abuse of elderly Chinese men and Chinese ladies in the Chinatown community in San Francisco and in Oakland, which is the Bay Area where I live. That’s near and dear to my heart to see these 80-year-old elders, who are well respected in our in our culture. Elders are definitely people that we look up to and we care about, and to see them just get beat up randomly in the street in broad daylight. That is pretty shaking, and I know that some people in my community, in the Chinese community in the Bay Area, are afraid to go out to the streets. We see this in the media so much. We are afraid about our grandparents going out to the streets. For me personally, my grandparents passed away before the pandemic. I don’t personally worry about them, but when I do hear of these incidents, I do think about grandparents of my friends or in my community.

So these are two incidents that really stand out to me, and how does it affect me and my lived experiences as I reflect on that? In the beginning of the pandemic, my husband and I were afraid to identify ourselves as Chinese ethnicity in the public. I didn’t even feel comfortable going out to do grocery shopping. Outside of the pandemic the scariness of that, even if it was safe to go I didn’t feel safe to openly identify myself as being a Chinese woman because we would hear stories of people in a nearby community where I live where Asian people would get spit on in broad daylight. I would not feel comfortable decorating my house during Chinese New Year because I don’t wanna be targeted as a Chinese family with any hate crimes or potential hate crimes. And still today, I don’t feel comfortable doing that: identifying myself in Chinese to the broad public. So those are the experiences that affect me daily.

Larry Baker: Yeah, and Jessica, so many of the things that you mentioned just really echo and resonate with a lot of the civil unrest that’s been going on. More focused since 2020, but in the reality—just like you mentioned—it’s been going on way before that, right? You mentioned 1860. I can refer back to 1619.

Jessica Shao: Yeah.

Larry Baker:  So those similar experiences still resonate today in 2022. Thank you so much for that. So Peyina, you’re up. Tell me a couple of things that have been the most impactful for you. If you want to go back the past two years, that’s totally fine, but just talk to me about some of those notable experiences.

Peyina Lin-Roberts: Mm-hm. Definitely COVID 19 being a disease that people just directly associated with Chinese and therefore—because, you know, “all Asians look alike”—to all Asians regardless of what race or what nationality you are. Personally, I was at the time serving at a board that not enough… nobody had knowledge in March, 2020 about what the pandemic would do. Because my sister is a doctor in Taiwan and had to deal firsthand with the swine flu, she was warning us ahead of time, “In Taiwan people are already closing borders X, Y, and Z. Be careful, I heard there’s a case in Washington.” And so we were extremely careful.

But being an Asian person, a Taiwanese person, and trying to play by fiduciary duty and warn the board that we shouldn’t hold public event wasn’t so well received. Just personally, the credibility that I had was like none. I don’t know that that’s necessarily associated with me being Taiwanese or Asian, but there was something about being the face of that people associated with the disease. What are people gonna think of that?

In addition in those times, wearing a mask is something that’s quite common in Taiwan. People go out on the streets, they wear a mask even when there’s no pandemic because of pollution because of respect. If you’re sick, you kind of wanna protect others, and all people wear it because of pollution. But I live in Seattle, and at the time we didn’t know that outdoors is less [transmittable]. We just thought, “Let’s protect ourselves.” We wear a mask, and we would get people staring at us because it wasn’t common yet.

There was also an incident where I could sense that people had slowed down their car in order to do something. I don’t know, but I’m very aware of that: maybe throwing something at me or that kind of thing. I turned around, and they slowed down and then moved on. Since then I basically, during the early times of the pandemic, did not wanna go out and walk alone. I had to ask my husband to come along with me. So that’s one of the incidents.

And of course related to that, just like Jessica was sharing, is the hate crimes against API. I think it was in January of this year that a woman was pushed into the New York subway and died straight there. At the time I had a contract with an organization in the east coast collaborating with other diversity, equity, inclusion practitioners on offering kinda organization-wide culture change and might have required me to travel to New York. For the first time I was like, “Hey, maybe I need to go take martial arts.” (laughs) I looked up what’s the most effective martial arts because I’m thinking if someone pushes you from behind, you won’t know. Because of that thought of “this could be something that can happen to me,” I had regretted in the past—when I had the option of choosing between yoga and martial arts—choosing yoga.

So these are things that personally have affected me because being in the diversity, equity, and inclusion space particularly, I’m aware what makes us humans treat others as someone that we can exclude. It’s when we don’t see people being equal, when we see people as being a threat. And yet there I was. I am the threat. That just felt viscerally stronger than any sort of exclusion or racism that I experienced growing up, which is different. It’s like a mild exclusion because “you’re not one of us” versus “you are the virus,” right?

Larry Baker: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Peyina, that just really resonates with so many times where I will walk into a building or into a store and just automatically have people look at me differently because I’m a pretty big guy. And when people see me—big, Black guy late at night—even if it’s the most innocent trip, like going to the grocery store. Who does not go to the grocery store? But if it’s late at night, or even in certain situations mid-evening, that you go into this store, you can literally feel the atmosphere shift. It’s almost as if “what happened?” I’m looking around thinking, “Am I in danger?” But in reality, they’re looking at me because they feel like they’re in danger. That whole phenomenon of having an entire environment change just because of your presence, that really resonates with me as part of my experience just walking around in this space. I definitely appreciate both of your insights in regards to that.

Let’s move from your experiences, and maybe you can share with us some ways that you’ve noticed how these events and some other major events over the past couple of years have been impacting other people of Asian or Pacific Islander descent. Peyina, if you could start, and then Jessica. We’re gonna kinda rotate it that way.

Peyina Lin-Roberts: Sure thing. I’ll share some things that I observed that really, really hit core. So I live in Seattle, and one time I was walking in downtown Seattle and I saw a rally with like lots of Chinese characters and people of an older generation—you know, you can see the white hair and the gray hair, so a generation above me. I just assumed this was like a “Stop Asian Hate” type of thing. Then when I looked closer to the characters—because I do read Chinese characters and there’s was also English—my jaw dropped to the floor because what this was about was Taiwanese Americans or non-Chinese Asians doing a rally to clarify that the virus did not come from them. That they are not the Chinese that the virus came from. That they’re the good Chinese and that the virus came from the other, the Chinese from mainland China. And that hit core because isn’t that what racism does to us?

Larry Baker: Yeah, separates us.

Peyina Lin-Roberts: Racism is a system where there is one group at the highest of the hierarchy, one group at the lower hierarchy, and then those who are in between will do whatever they can so that they’re not at the lower hierarchy. Absolutely. This is what the racism and structures of oppression does: it pits people who are marginalized, who are not the highest privilege, against each other because if they’re not aware about the impact that they’re having on each other, they’re gonna be fighting against each other to climb up the ladder of privilege.

I mean, I know that cause I do these trainings, and yet I hadn’t seen it person. And the Taiwanese Americans and the Chinese American thing was right there in my face. It changed back to then what really motivated me. to clarify for me that I could not just be continuing to solidify my commitment to work in solidarity against anti-Blackness. That I also needed to simultaneously be in spaces to both create safe spaces for API folks but also know that in the API folks that are experiencing this, we needed to elevate more that we’re all swimming in the same waters professionally, if you will.

Larry Baker: What you’re describing to me, Peyina, is something very similar to—I think it was a book—”crabs in a barrel.” You know how crabs act when somebody gets the opportunity to get out, and they don’t really get out because another crab is bringing them down. That whole dynamic that you were talking about, how certain groups in the AAPI were saying, “We’re not those people, so don’t judge us because they’re not us.” I think that that is so unique within your community because forever it seems like they used the AAPI community against other minority groups, saying that this was the model minority group. “See how they were able to come over here, and they were able to accomplish all these things? Why can’t you—Black people or Hispanics or whatever group—why can’t you be more like Asian Americans?” And it’s that rift that you’re talking about, that we’re all swimming in the same ocean as people of color. That unity is something we tend to overlook because we’re so caught up in saying “we’re not like them, so don’t look at us like that.” And it even happens within our own culture. That whole subculture within AAPI, that exists within the Black culture, that exists within the Hispanic culture… it definitely resonates with me, so thank you so much for sharing.

Peyina Lin-Roberts: May I add something as well? Cuz you brought up something…

Larry Baker: Yes.

Peyina Lin-Roberts: I also see good things happen, though. One of the communities that I joined is called the Black-Asian Alliance Network. These are started by individuals who are mixed-race individuals and who are in this constant tension amongst themselves because, as we know, historically the Black and Asian community have been pit against each other because of the same phenomenon that you were describing. They know that the work starts with them if they have the mixed-race within them. I just wanted to also elevate the solidarity and the work that is happening at the same time that other things are like Peyina said.

Larry Baker: Absolutely. As if we don’t have enough going on, right? Jessica, I’m gonna give you opportunity to hop in here. Tell me, talk to me, expand it. You talked about it personally. I want you, if you can, give me a little bit of expansion on others and how these events may have impacted them.

Jessica Shao: Honestly, I’ve been a mom. [It] was my biggest identity in the past few years, so I haven’t been out and about in the community and taking leadership roles in the community. So what I know is really just based on word-of-mouth and what I see in the Chinese media. I live in the San Francisco Bay area, and as I mentioned earlier, there are hate crimes against the Asian American community specifically targeting Chinese people in Chinatown. Unfortunately, I do hear stories of this tension between the Black and the Chinese community exacerbated through the pandemic because [the] pandemic has caused a lot of economic wounds on many communities, and Black communities bear a lot of it as well. People in my community see a lot of violence perpetrated by the black community, and that exacerbated this myth of the stereotype of Black people within the Chinese community. Mm-This is something that, for me, I’ve tried to reconcile with and tried to find a space for me to know what to do. How do I create this allyship, and how do we go and explore in the two different communities and converge or even just have a deeper understanding?

In San Francisco, where my family lives, it’s very closely connected with the Black community with public housing, so there’s a lot of incidents where these two communities collide. Unfortunately, it’s also where the Chinese community in San Francisco also see shootings or see robberies. And it just reinforces what they hear in the media in front of their eyes. Especially in the pandemic where we don’t go anywhere and all we get is what you hear from the media, this fear is growing, and the tension, I feel like, is forever there.

Larry Baker: Yeah, and like we said earlier, it was like almost like it was by design to pit these two groups against one another. To make them natural adversaries, if you will. To make it that much more challenging to engage in conversations with each culture. Because I know from my perspective from being a part of the Black community that a lot of the concern focuses around economics. And here’s what I mean by that: you can go into, I would say, 90% of Black or African American communities, and you’ll find some type of AAPI business in those communities. Flip that around, and I would dare to say if you find 10% of Black or African American businesses in the AAPI community… so I think at some level, the economic reciprocity is a conversation that could be influencing these negative feelings.

And when you are part of an oppressed community and they keep telling you that this culture is the model minority, you need to be like them, when we make the effort to do those things in those communities, it’s not reciprocated. It’s like we have that opening in our communities, but the economic opportunities aren’t reciprocated in the AAP community. And again, we’ve said this at the beginning: none of us are a monolith. We are not monoliths. We do not speak on behalf of the millions of individuals in the AAPI community, and I do not speak on behalf of the millions of Blacks in our community. But these are some of the conversations, from my experience, that I hear that if we start to have conversations about economic reciprocity, I think that that will begin have people at least come to the table to address the greater concerns. Now, again, that is Larry Baker’s words. Please don’t say, “Well, Larry said…” No, no, no, no, no. That was just my interpretation from my experience, and it goes right along to what you were saying earlier.

But yes, great conversation because that rift, if you will, it appears that it’s always been there. That they really made that focused, concentrated effort to pit the AAPI community against the Black community really to fight civil rights. I really feel like that was at the heart of the matter that says, “Why do Black people need civil rights when the a AAPI community, they’ve come over and they’ve been able to be successful without civil rights?” Fundamentally that’s just not the facts, right? But that’s, again, Larry’s take. Please don’t take that to the bank and say, “Well, this is what Larry said.”

Jessica Shao: Yeah. I think another thing that is not as tangible that I see rising in my community here and there is just the rising fear that’s not just fear of getting coronavirus but fear of being who you are and fear of going out to the public. And I see that not just in my family, but in people that I know. I hear it in the community, and I feel like that’s the biggest virus that we have to battle against: the fear. And how do we make it so that we know it’s fabricated? It’s intentional. That fear is a tool…

Larry Baker: It absolutely is!

Jessica Shao: … for certain groups to remain in power over another.  I think maybe I’m jumping into what we wanna do. I feel like as part of this work in bringing diversity and inclusion into the table and making it daily life… It’s not just a one-off event that you would talk about or one-off conversation but how do we do this and how do we address this virus of fear. I think that’s both physical and internal and psychological. So as someone who is advocating for inclusivity, I think I would like to figure out how to do that and how to address this powerful tool of fear when it comes to racial justice.

Larry Baker: Yeah, that’s a great point. Jessica, like you said, you were leading me into that next question, so I’m glad that you went there. I just wanna shape it because you started to touch on… What does authentic allyship look like as opposed to performative allyship, or what do people of Asian and Pacific Islander descent need most to feel supported?

Jessica Shao: I think about this question, and I think about this fact that Chinese American has been around since 1860, and now we’re in 2022 and we’re still grappling with these issues and how deep-rooted, how pervasive, um, these stereotypes roots from the ground and how long it lasts. And also the risk and the— how should I say this?—the harmfulness of a single story about any people, any race, any culture. For me personally, as I reflect on these issues, and thinking about what can we do to reverse this pervasiveness to slowly establish these understandings across different cultures and communities… I think it’s really leaning in as an individual to hear the stories of others who are different from you. So learning about my neighbor who have a completely different set of backgrounds and who they are.

For me, it’s not so much from a macro level, from an organizational level, or from a nation what designed policies. But even as individuals, we can affect so much change from our own acts and from individual acts of just leaning into, if you have in your orbits, people of Asian descent. Simple access to just learning about who they are. “How do you say your name? What does your name mean, if there’s a meaning?” It’s something that seems very mundanely simple, but when I hear that, I feel like I belong. Larry, when I hear it from you, who wants to learn how to pronounce my name, I feel like, “Oh wow, he cares!” And that’s the strongest form of allyship—is showing that you care. Even though you don’t receive the same experiences and you don’t have the same lived experiences, you have empathy. I think for me, that’s the most authentic allyship one can have with the Asian community.

Larry Baker: Thank you so much for that, Jessica. Peyina, hop in there. I know you have some insight about, you know, “Let’s be authentic. Let’s not be performative.” Because we all have our months, right? Everybody wants to advertise during our [heritage] months and put up their banners during our months, but to me that’s purely performative. To me, that’s all about capitalism. So, Peyina, talk to me. What does it look like, in your opinion, that would move from that and would be viewed as authentic?

Peyina Lin-Roberts: Well, I’m all a hundred percent there with Jessica and what she’s saying. And our previous conversation highlighted something for me, which is that in order for us to realize how these roots in our historical systems for oppression have created intergenerational impact and continue to do so, I think what’s a very important aspect is for us to learn about history, with the hope that by learning through history we can be more aware about how we are caught in the same patterns. You need to learn from history, not just to learn facts, It’s like what is the impact?

The other thing is to be aware our own identities. Because I have an identity as a cisgender woman, Asian, and that creates privileges and marginalization in specific ways, so how does that then shape my lenses of the world. That shapes my biases and blind parts of the world. I’m gonna borrow from a very esteemed colleague who uses this; his name is Terence Harwood, and he uses this example of “Hey, most of us had an experience of killing a bug, right? When we kill a bug, what makes us think it’s okay to kill a bug?” And he goes, “It’s fear. We think they’re a threat. We think they do not deserve to live. They’re a pest. Whatever.” If we use that same sort of fear and threat towards others, then imagine. What’s the way we’re gonna behave towards that other?

Larry Baker: Wow.

Peyina Lin-Roberts: Same. We treat them like a bug, right? So instead, I think what’s really important for authentic allyship is to truly be able to see someone as a human that deserves to be cared for just for being, not for what they bring to the table. And sometimes that requires a little extra effort because I know that I’m a little less friendly with my neighbors than my husband is. And part of it is the shield that I’ve built over time, where like if I’m ignored, I’m not gonna try this time. It’s this like cyclical effect.

Because here’s the deal. We go and meet people, and my husband is British so then people get really interested. “Where is your accent from?” and blah, blah, blah, blah. Then do they ever ask me? No. Like I’m just there. “Oh yeah, great. And where’re you from?” Then I start talking, and then they’re not interested anymore. With that story, what I’m trying to say is yes, you wanna treat someone as a human being, but sometimes maybe it takes a little extra effort. And yet—I’m not giving a simple answer—we have to consider people at different stages of development. If you were treating me when I was younger, when all I wanted to do was belong and be seen as not different, and you did extra with me, you’re making me stand out.

So it’s having a little patience, knowing that people of Asian and Pacific Islander descent, each one of us is gonna be in our own journey of how we fit in this world, same as anyone else. It’s how to lead with curiosity, as I was saying, with respect, checking in our own biases, and being okay that maybe English is actually our most fluent language right now. Even if I have an accent at times, even if I have to mix other languages and don’t know all my vocabulary in English, it is still so far from my most fluent language. It’s just accepting the paradox of dissonance that exists in us and humanity.

Larry Baker: Okay. Yeah, I love that. You are talking about so many concepts, Peyina that in this space of DE&I we talk about: we talk about bias, we talk about culture, we talk about meeting people where they are, we talk about humility, we talk about humanity. We talk about all of these different things as practitioners. So with that lens, if you had to—because again, it’s enormous, right? You were, you were pointing out that boy, oh boy, there are so many rabbit holes that we can go down when we have these conversations. But if you had one ask for DEI practitioners and the companies who really want to promote allyship and support people of Asian and Pacific Islander descent, what would that be? What would be your one ask? Peyina, I’ll ask you to start and then Jessica, you can think of yours because I’m gonna ask you the same question. So Peyina, you first. What’s that one ask if you had that magic wand. “Here’s what I want it to be.”

Peyina Lin-Roberts: Mm-hm. That is such a good and difficult question to answer because that one ask. I think it relates to something I just mentioned earlier, but it’s being able to release expectations and assumptions about someone’s category, identity, or whatnot. Right?

Larry Baker: Yeah, that’s good!

Peyina Lin-Roberts: A simple example is me. If I started speaking in Spanish, you wouldn’t know I’m Asian, except for now I’m a little more broken. But this has literally happened to me. It’s like not just the social identity of like what language you speak or what is your cultural identity—not just that—but also being able to hold the kind of dissonance or paradox that this person may be in this many ways quote-unquote “Asian” because they’re humble, they don’t necessarily stand out or like lead in certain ways, and yet in many others they’re gonna be direct and demand for what they they need. And then don’t use the double bind to then say, “Hey, you are not a good cultural fit.” It’s like being able to hold that within one individual, they can have multidimensional characteristics that don’t fit preexisting social boxes.

Larry Baker: Yeah, or all the different levels of intersectionality, right?

Peyina Lin-Roberts: Yeah.

Larry Baker: Because you’re never really just one thing. It’s just like you said, in one instance you can be an Asian business executive, but in the next moment you’re a wife, you’re a mother, you’re a volunteer, or what have you. So all of those intersectionality points have to be considered, and we have to put down all of those preconceived notions or stereotypes and biases that we have towards individuals. We want ’em to fit in this nice little box, and when they go outside of that box it’s like, “Whoa, what’d you do that for? This is what I thought you were going to be, and you’re totally not that.”

So thank you so much, Peyina. Okay, Jessica, one ask.

Jessica Shao: Yeah. That was very good.

Jessica Shao: My ask would  to be able to somehow increase our tolerance for dissonance. How can you and I create space for these diverging opinions and worldviews can come together and actually speak to each other? Not in any accusatory or not in any hierarchical ways mm-hmm, but how can we create the space for people of varying backgrounds, varying beliefs to just talk to each other, even though we know that I believe in something that’s very different than what you believe in?

I think for me it’s something that’s so, so important for our country, for that political environment that we live in right now. For me as an individual and for me as a mother, as I think about raising the next generation of women in America, how can I give this superpower to my daughters so that they learn to listen to those who don’t believe the same things that they do. It’s one ask, but it’s also multiple asks to be able to do that and to have the listening skills and to have that opening mind to be able to lean in to hear other people’s stories.

Larry Baker: And Jessica, you talk about a concept that I often refer to as “we have to give each other grace.” We have to understand that everyone has a different experience, and we wanna make room for those experiences. And then when we have differences in our experiences, we have to be willing to engage in that conversation without the judgment, without the criticism, without the negativity. That is actually fighting a tendency that we’ve almost been ingrained to have this negative view towards other people or other cultures experiences, and ultimately what’s at the root of that is—in my opinion, again—that people profit from us having these conflicts because it’s easier to pit this group against that group. They realize that if those groups ever came together, yikes. That could be really powerful. That could be revolutionary. That could be the evolution of us moving to this society that hopefully was supposed to happen when America was founded.

But when we start putting all those things aside and start saying, “Hey, let’s start to build on all of our experiences in such a way that we’re bridging, coming together, and creating space for everyone to have those individuals experiences, but we bridge them and merge them in such a way that we see the best in each other.” I think that that’s that ultimate level of conversation that we need to get to.

So thank you both for coming on today. This was amazing! Jessica, I know that I’ve worked with you in the past, but Peyina, I think it was an incredible opportunity to meet with you and to discuss with you. I’d like to give you both the opportunity because if someone heard something throughout this podcast and they’re like, “Wow, I’d really like to hear more about that,” how can they reach out to you to make contact? Jessica, if you could talk about your preferred method, and then Peyina, I’ll give you an opportunity to do that as well.

Jessica Shao: Yeah, I’m wide open to the public via LinkedIn, so if you want to carry the conversation, I’d love to speak with you and hear from people.

Larry Baker: Awesome.

Peyina Lin-Roberts: Yeah, same here. I’m also on LinkedIn, and I welcome people to connect or message me there as well.

Larry Baker: Perfect. Thank you both so much for this incredibly important topic, and I just love to have conversations where I can see connections in regards to how it reflects an experience that I have in this country as well. Thank you both for your time, and for those of you that have joined us, hopefully there was something that you can take from this and then begin to apply in your journey of diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful day.

Peyina Lin-Roberts: Thank you, Larry.

Jessica Shao: Thank you.

Larry Baker: You are welcome.

And to all of you that are listening, we wanna know what were your biggest takeaways from this conversation. Please share them with us on Facebook, Twitter, or LinkedIn at Language and Culture Worldwide or LCW.

Following the industry’s boom during the pandemic, the tech sector faces extensive layoffs and a looming recession. Growing employee unease makes intentionally inclusive engagement the number one priority, but what does DEI look like in tech?

Join Culture Moments Host Larry Baker (he/him) and Gusto’s Chief Diversity and Engagement Officer Bernard Coleman (he/him) for a discussion about the cultural implications of tech layoffs and creating proactive strategies for engaging and retaining top talent.

After tuning in to the conversation, we encourage you to share your takeaways on Facebook, Twitter, or LinkedIn.

Show Notes & Highlights

4:37  Bernard explains the current biggest DEI challenges in tech

14:57  Bernard shares tips for DEI practitioners working in the tech sector

21:02  Bernard discusses keeping DEI a priority with tightening budgets

24:09  Bernard connects the concept of “Trusted Few” to barriers facing Black and Brown folks

28:45  Bernard reflects on how the tech industry has changed over 20 years

32:33  Larry explains how current events have led to new platforms for change

35:24  Bernard considers the effect of the recession on our progress toward equity

Show Transcript

Larry Baker: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Culture Moments podcast. I’m your host, Larry Baker, and I am thrilled to have you join us for our second season called “Brave Conversations with LCW.” In these episodes, you’ll hear from a panel of guests from specific communities offering a range of perspectives on the past two years. We’ll hear about their own experiences as well as their insights on what has changed and, more importantly, what needs to change to move equity forward. As we all know, so much has shifted and changed over the past two years. And for many of us, we’re still in recovery from a very difficult 24 months.

So hello, everyone, and welcome to Brave Conversations Live with LCW. I am your host, Larry Baker. I use the pronouns of he and him, and I am thrilled to welcome you to this episode of our live stream series. Each month, we will be making space for timely and important conversations that we hope will educate, generate discussion, and help you to take some actionable items back to your organization and your daily lives. For those of you who may not be familiar with LCW, we are a global diversity, equity, and inclusion training, consulting, and translation firm that partners with organizations to help develop global mindsets and help you develop the skills and systems to succeed in a culturally diverse world.

Today I am super excited to have this conversation around events that you’ve probably heard about over the last few months all over the news, which are about layoffs in the tech sector. We’ll be diving into what impacts these layoffs are having, how to bring up questions around equity, and what we can expect from here.

I am being joined by Bernard Coleman, who is Gusto’s Chief Diversity and Engagement Officer, and I’m going to be asking Bernard to introduce himself in a moment. But before we jump into our conversation, I wanted to make sure that I let each and every one of you know that after our discussion, we’re going to answer some of the questions that you all might have for Bernard or myself in these conversations. So as we dive in, please don’t be afraid to ask your questions in the chat and we will get to them as soon as we are done with our portion. With that being said, I would like to invite Bernard Coleman to give an introduction of himself before we kick off the session. So, Bernard, welcome, and please introduce yourself.

Bernard Coleman: Thank you Larry. Thank you, LCW, for having me here today. I think this is a very timely conversation. I’m Bernard Coleman. I’m the Chief Diversity and Engagement Officer at Gusto. Gusto, for those who don’t know, is a people platform. Basically, we help small and medium-sized businesses empower a better life through payroll, 401K benefits… helping you run your business and hopefully simplifying your life in the process. I’ve been there about three years. This is the work that I love to do, and I’m looking forward to this conversation.

Larry Baker: Great, thank you so much, Bernard. So to get us started, I know—and hopefully our audience will understand this as soon as we get through our conversation—that you’re not only immersed within the tech world as you just mentioned, but you’re thinking about that space specifically with a DE&I lens. Can you give us some background in regards to what are the tech spaces greatest challenges when we think about diversity, equity, inclusion specifically during this time?

Bernard Coleman: I think tech is grappling with a lot of changes. I think when you’re looking at… we’re still in the throes of a pandemic. Though it feels like it’s closer to the end, we’re still in a pandemic. The macroeconomic trends are telling us a recession is coming—nobody knows when. And that’s backed against last year was a wild year. It was a year of growth. A lot of tech companies were booming, and so we’re just feeling a 180 degrees difference from last year to this year. So there’s a lot of adjustment and whiplash. And I think when you take that whole environment—the pandemic, the looming macroeconomic trends—I think companies are maybe right-sizing for the moment they think they’re entering, then also trying to keep equity at the center, and then also trying to grow your business at the same time.

I think there’s a lot of ambiguity in the water as people are trying to grapple with what’s next, and I think the biggest challenge is how do you operate within this environment and doing it in an equitable way, so that way—whether you’re doing adjustments or not to your staff and the size and makeup of your staff— that you’re also thinking about the morale and the people that are left behind and understanding the successful path forward.

So I think that there’s a lot of challenges there, but I think it’s really like how do you manage your workforce through… I’m gonna say crisis. How do you manage through and make sure that everyone has perspective and that we can see, hopefully, there’s a light at the end of this?

Larry Baker: Okay, so that kind of shapes where I want to go with my next question because you talked about these changes that are happening in the workforce. Specifically, what types of conversations are you having with your organizational leadership around equity when it comes to this decision-making process

Bernard Coleman: Yeah, I think Gusto and others really had me think about when is the process itself efficient. And a lot of times I think in boom, years, sometimes you get less efficient, right? You have to think about what are the efficiencies: what should we be doing to make sure that we are always maximizing our economies of scale and really thinking through what’s that process look like?

And when we’re talking about it, you have to look at the entire employee life cycle. How do you invite people? How do you onboard them? How do you hire them? How do you engage with them? How do you progress them? How do you develop them up until someone graduates? But you have to look the entire employee life cycle to understand what’s going on with equity and how’s that look for each person, whatever the demographic is. What does that experience look like: is it equitable, is it fair? And then that’s when you should be focusing on those efficiencies I mentioned, to get those economies of scale. So that way, no matter where you’re on the process, people know it’s a fair process, and you’re always keeping that top of mind.

And also not fall into your base selves. I think in times of crisis, process can go out the window. Efficiencies can go out the window because people are in a panic state. But it’s really being thoughtful and thinking about what’s needed for not only the organization but what’s needed for your people to get through this period of time. Cuz it’s just: that a period of time. We know there’s bull markets and there’s bear markets, and we happen to be heading into a bear market. And this is just adjustments you have to make.

I think it’s really helping people have that perspective. The way we frame it is we look also to history. We look to the late nineties, early two thousands; there was the .com bubble bursting. If you look at how recessions go, this is very similar. There’s nothing gonna be exactly the same, but it allows you to understand what happened then, how did people respond, what could we be doing now to then make sure the severity is in what it was back then 20 some years ago. So I think it’s also being students of history and providing that perspective cuz a lot of folks—I think if you have earlier career staff—we have never been through a recession. They might have been around for only a bull market and they don’t have perspective, and so this might feel like a very scary time. This could feel like a time of our knees, but I think by looking at the past, you can be more thoughtful about the approach to the future. So I think that’s why you have to think about equity, cuz I think back then that was unknown for folks. I think some people saw a lot of companies not do as well because they weren’t so circumspect or thinking about or have a historical point to look back to, to think about how they could go forward.

Larry Baker: Yeah. That’s such an awesome mindset, Bernard, to actually make people look at the past. To see some of those mistakes that were made so that we are not condemned to repeat them. I think that’s an excellent point of reference that would not just be applicable in the tech sector, but in all employment sectors, right? Because I know that there’s that duality that you talked about that you’re looking at it from a diversity, equity, and inclusion perspective, but you’re looking at that whole life cycle of the employees. So I appreciate you sharing that insight about taking a look at the history. That’s an excellent point.

So when we think about that… because you talk about where we’re in this moment where we’re on the edge of this recession, and specifically let’s talk about the impact of the tech world. What are you seeing happening in this space right now, and why do you think it’s happening?

Bernard Coleman: Yeah, I think honestly last year we were overheated, and I think people overhired. I think efficiencies go out the window when at almost a sugar high, if you will, and so it’s interesting to see all those cycles. We saw last year was a great resignation or the great realignment. Now we’re talking about the great breakup.

You look at the McKinsey numbers—in terms of the McKinsey-LeanIn studies—showing that people are breaking up with organizations, and still we’re seeing the Department of Labor saying there’s two roles for every applicant. So even despite looming recession, there’s still a war for talent. We are getting a lot of mixed signals, but I think companies need to be thinking again about those efficiencies, like re-thinking org design: what does your org look like, what does it need to go to this next level, are you assigning talent to task and making sure you have the right people in the right places to run your business? Cause a lot of times goal posts move. You need to move your team to align to where the goal posts are now, so that way you can be successful.

I think that’s super important. When think about your headcount planning, do you still need those same folks? I think it’s really investing in your people—and back to that equity piece—equitably, so that way there might not be the same outcomes, but people should have the same opportunities to get invested in. I think as you move in realigning your team to those tasks, [it’s] really understanding how that should be configured for you to be successful, right? I think the other parts are still focusing on the culture, making sure people understand the mission and the purpose, and that’s why we’re here.

Then being really transparent in that communication and conveying to people, as soon as you know it, this is what’s going on. Sharing it with your team, sharing it with your leaders, so that way you’re bringing everyone in the journey. When you can do that really well, I think you settle the waters. You’re allowing people to see their role in the larger, bigger ecosystem of what it will take for us to be successful, to get out of this place and to the next thing.

I think we’re seeing that across tech companies. Certain companies were more reserved, and maybe they didn’t hire so many people. Certain companies–and I don’t wanna call any of them out–but they hired a great deal of people and they’re now having to make these adjustments. I think it’s everyone really right-sizing or making sure that we are right-sized for what’s coming. Cuz again, the recession, at least according to the Fed, is not yet here. So it’s making sure that you are getting more efficient and thinking about these things, and you really need to be thinking about it from an equitable lens.

Larry Baker: Yeah, thank you so much for that, Bernard. I’m really drawn to the piece where you’re talking about organizations sharing that transparency because it not only reveals the true intentions behind what’s going on during this time period, but it also lets people know that you’re doing this in a manner that’s, uh, respectful for who they are as an individual. Because even though we think about, how traumatic these layoffs can be for those individuals that may have to endure them, being transparent, being open, letting people feel like “Okay, even though this is something that could be viewed as something negative that’s happening to me, at least I know what’s going on every step of the way.” I appreciate that whole concept of transparency and how it’s not just applicable in the tough times. Having that transparency during the good times as well is super important. So thank you for that insight as well.

When we think about our organization at LCW, we absolutely have the privilege of working with a number of clients that work in the tech sector. I’m wondering, are there personal lessons that you’d like to share with our community of DE&I practitioners who are working in the tech sector based upon some things that you’ve gone through? And it doesn’t have to be specific to Gusto, of course. I mean, you have years of experience with multiple organizations, so some ideas. You know, “Here’s some lessons that I’ve learned that I’d like to share with you as a DE&I practitioner to help through these situations.” So from that perspective, what kind of lessons learned can you share with us, Bernard?

Bernard Coleman: There’s lots of lessons, that’s for sure. I think the first one is putting equity at the center. First it is sharing the perspective, but sometimes people can seem like numbers. We get too far away from the actual people who are doing the work, the jobs. The impact of this is having on them as they see… you know, I go on LinkedIn and you can see on the right-hand scroll, this company’s doing layoffs, that company’s doing layoffs. It could be anxiety-inducing. I think it’s important to understand, again, how people are feeling where they are and they aren’t numbers. They are indeed people with families, and they’re doing important work. Even though they might still be safe, like let’s say they are the ones who also survive a layoff, you have to also think about how those folks are coping. There’s feelings of loss, saying goodbye to people. I’ve been through that. Before I was working in technology I worked on campaigns, and it was fairly cyclical: you’d see friends, make ’em, and then their jobs would come to end. And you felt this emotional loss because your buddy or buddies may not make it.

I think it’s giving people a lot of grace; no matter what’s going on, is giving people grace during this process. No matter what side of a yard. That’s the first piece. I think second is being transparent and communicating what you know when you know. Treating people like adults so that way they can plan and make decisions. I think having a plan makes you feel more assured, not that it changes anything, but I think giving people that semblance of peace of mind is critically important. But I think it’s also important to understand—now, this is the larger lesson and why this work is so important when you think about diversity, equity, inclusion—is when you see these layoffs happening and you hear that old adage “last hire, first fire,” now you have to think, “How do we get to this place?“ And when I think about any company, when you form a company, build a company, you’re probably pulling from your social circles. If your social circles homogenous, it’s a lot of like for like. And so the company is growing, growing, growing, those are the core roles, the core parts of the business are being built out. They’re definitely the first hire. But when you actually get to a large and larger organization, that’s when you might be more flushed like last year. You might invite others in who might not be part of your immediate social circle. When you think about this, this is why it’s so important to keep DEI top of mind and making it core to your business so that way when—and heaven forbid someone has to do a tech layoff or any type of layoff for that matter—it was more representative to begin with. So therefore it is more fair and equitable because the demography of your company was more representative of wherever your company’s operating.

I think when you look that way, it makes it very, very difficult—that when you get to that terrible position of having to make those tough cuts, and then the thawing on the historically excluded—that’s why we do this work: getting to the root of that and understanding it started then. If a company’s been around 20, 30 years, there’s a lot to it. There’s layers.

I think the important thing is this work is continuous. It’s a journey, and you have to kind of remind people and bring them along. Help them understand there’s so many layers to it, and that you should be thinking about DEI the entire time, not just in the boom years, but also right now when we’re talking about efficiencies. How are you looking at it through the DEI lens to make sure that you can’t get those economies at scale, even on the DEI side? Cuz it should be integrated into everything that you do I think that’s being the student of history, understanding those trends and how we got here.

Larry Baker: Yeah. I think that’s such an excellent point that because these systems have been prevalent throughout the organization’s makeup, having those conversations in regards to, “Well, how do we adjust that? How do we move forward?” We can’t change the past, right? We can look at the past to get an idea of where we want to go in the future, but what do we do in the here and now?

I really appreciate you talking about that these conversations are even more essential when you go through these periods where “Oh my gosh, do we revert back to what we’ve always done? Or do we really make those tough decisions that no, we’re gonna forge ahead in a new way? And we’re going to look at these decisions that we’re making with that DE&I lens top of mind so that when we come out of this, it will now become a part of our new culture that we’re trying to establish.” I absolutely appreciate you providing that insight, so thank you so much for that, Bernard.

What I’d like to do—Bernard, if you’re okay with this—let’s see if we have a few questions from our audience. I’m gonna check our chat and see if we have a few questions… Oh, here we go. I hope that I do not mispronounce your name: Shanna Atkinson. And if I did mispronounce your name, I apologize. Her question is, “Hello. I wanted to ask: how can we make sure DE&I remains a priority even as budgets may tighten?” That is probably along that whole concept that you mentioned, Bernard: first hired, first fired. The first thing that usually goes is the DE&I initiative, so I’m gonna let you dig into that one, Bernard. How do we make sure that it remains a priority?

Bernard Coleman: It’s a great question, and thank you for that one. I’m sure that’s the million-dollar question. Maybe it’s the billion-dollar question. So how do we make sure that DEI remains a priority, even as budgets tighten? I think it’s tying it back to values, to the mission, to the purpose and reminding people that it is part of that journey, or it should be. Cuz I know the talent and the existing employees care about it.

There’s a stat—I always like to try it out—from the Edelman Public Trust; they say people believe more in employers and businesses as opposed to the government. So there is an expectation that companies are having to do more, need to do more, need to do better because that is where the trust is with: with our employers, right? So if you’re a company, and even though you might say, “Well, we’re just doing this temporarily,” people will remember and have long memories. This word-of-mouth DEI is what people ask about when talent goes to join a company. This is part of their assessment on their rubric, of why they joined the company and why they leave. Cuz the other side of the coin is right now, there’s two jobs for every applicant. Folks are gonna leave if they don’t think that commitment’s there.

And so DEI is at the center of it all cuz everyone says—almost anybody I interview says—this is important, and then this is why they’re assessing. They’re thinking about DEI, they’re thinking about culture, they’re thinking about values, but those values, they’re all interrelated. So I think it’s also reminding leaders or those who might have forgotten, there is an inherent value in DEI to nearly everyone in the company. They should be incentivized to make sure that doesn’t go away when they’re tightening budgets, that at least if you are tightening budgets that it’s equitably applied. If everybody has to take a cut, everybody takes a cut. But if it’s just you’re calling out your DEI department, you’re not holding true to those values, to the mission, to the purpose, and you’re probably killing your brand because then people… they’ll speak. They’ll go on Glassdoor, talk to one another. Comparably, Blind, whatever the system they use, people are talking.

We talked about this being a potential bear market. We will come out of this and it’s gonna be a bull market, and then you might not be an employer of choice if you choose to let go of this. So I think you have to remind people… I don’t wanna say make the business case, but I will say remind them of the metrics that matter. It costs a lot more to rehire, to hire, than it is to retain, so you wanna keep that employee brand strong at all times. No matter recession or a boom year.

Larry Baker: Yeah, that’s a great point. I mean, that will be something that you will be measured on in regards to how did you respond in the tough times, right? When you had to make those tough decisions, were you committed to the values of the culture of your organization or did you say, “Yeah, this is too tough. We’re just gonna go back to the old standard way of things.” So that’s fantastic. Thank you so much for that question. Let’s see if we have any other questions…

Perfect. Thank you, Jacob. “Why does it seem that the tech sector faces added barriers for Black and Brown employees in particular, and how can organizations take a first step to address these?” So Bernard, again, in that role because you have that DE&I lens, gimme some insights on this as well.

Bernard Coleman: I think again, it goes back to—another great question—inherently how some tech organizations and companies were built. So pull from my group of friends… there’s this exercise we do in the DEI space where you—there’s a lot of different names for it—but you write a list of the 10 closest people to go to for advice outside of your parents.

Larry Baker: Your trusted few. Yeah, I know exactly what you’re talking about.

Bernard Coleman: And you take a look at that list and then, for many people who participate in that, it’s eye-opening when you realize that your trusted few looks a lot like you. So if you apply that to how your company’s built, you go to your trusted few cuz you of course wanna trust the people you’re building this new enterprise with. And as it grows and scales, your trusted few is pulling from their trusted few. And those referrals are becoming their trusted few referrals. Next thing you know, your company’s extremely homogenous.

And then you realize diversity and inclusion’s important cuz you saw the Edelman Public Trust stats, and data that says this should be important to me, so then you try to hire Black and Brown folks that you didn’t actually know at all. It becomes more and more difficult as you scale and get bigger. Then also when things. get to crisis mode, self-preservation comes about, and you save yourself and your friends. I hate to be so blunt about it, but that’s how people operate. That’s why DEI has to sit at the center of this cuz when you’re making your list of who you might consider and might need to leave the company, if it’s all Black and Brown that’s a problem.

This is where biases come into play, other institutional factors where this is a foregone conclusion. Of course they’re gonna be the ones who go because they were never in your trusted few. People have to really take stock of that and understand, “Am I perpetuating this?” Take a look at those lists, do better, try again, and make sure it is equitable. Because if the list ends up that way, it’s statistically improbable when you look across all these companies that they’re always the same groups of people. From my experience, that just means a lot of self-protection’s going on, whether that’s intentional or by accident, but we do need to get behind it because it shouldn’t end up that way, not if you’re doing this with care and diligence. It should not end up that way. Yeah.

Larry Baker: Yeah. The example of trusted few, it really resonates with me because you’re right, when we use that in some of the work that we do, a lot of people are surprised when they evaluate that trusted few and how homogeneous that group actually is. And it’s not just to the dominant culture, it’s to some of the underrepresented cultures as well. It speaks to that point of, “Well, if I don’t know you that well, then when it comes time to making those cuts I really don’t see you as part of that trusted few.”

It’s like you said: for lack of a better term, it may be easier for me to make the cut to you because we’re not really that close. I really don’t understand your situation and your makeup and how it will actually impact you. I definitely appreciate you going into that part of the conversation as well.

When we think about any other insights—because I think that, Bernard, you’ve touched upon so many crucial topics and so many crucial perspectives—I think we have one more question in the chat. Hold on for a second… I think someone just shot me a message, so let’s take a look at another question. I believe I’m being cued from the chat, so you can go ahead and share that question as well. I love the tech. Okay, so Bernard, and this is specific to you… Someone sent this to the chat: “You talked about that this tech boom and recession are reminiscent of something that happened in the early nineties and 2000s. What does this say about continuing business practices, and has anything really changed?”

Bernard Coleman: I think to a degree, yes. I think it depends on the age of your company and if you have leaders who perhaps were there and around or who were students of history who can remember how that went and then say, “Well, let’s not do that again. What can we do that’s different here?” But I also say this, like the emphasis of diversity, equity, and inclusion wasn’t a thing in the early 2000s. This field is really relatively new, was more so affirmative action to the law. Diversity, equity, and inclusion really comes down to motivation, help people gain perspective as to why this is important. It’s a different angle in terms of which we operate. I would say that didn’t exist before, not as it does as a discipline. So that’s changed. There’s a lot of awareness. I would say about five or six years ago, when people started putting out diversity reports in terms of that awareness, you’d share your business practices in terms of how you’re doing in terms of representation, having to explain why attrition was so high. The level of transparency is much greater than it was, 20-some odd years ago. I think companies are gonna have to come to task on that and really be honest about where they are and where they aren’t and be more thoughtful and actually revisit those lists if they’re thinking about layoffs or part of those layoffs.

I do think it also depends on the age of your company, but in terms of business practices, I do think people are more diligent and think about that risk when your lists look too much like one group. So I do think the practices have changed. Their awareness has changed. The conversation and tone and tenor have changed since then where I don’t think people are just so easily cast away in that sense. But we still have a long way to go. We still have a long way to go, but I think that the transparency is a good… what’s the best word I’m looking for? Kind of check to the system. I see what’s going on, and that you’re gonna be effectively taking a task on that if you are one of those companies who maybe using a 22-, 23-year-old dated model in terms of how you’re approaching this. I do think things have improved, but I think for the smaller companies, the younger companies who might not know any better, they might still be on the exact same things and history might be repeating itself. I think very much depends on who you have there in terms of your leadership team.

The other thing I’ll say is the HR function since that time I think has more clout. And what I mean by that is I’ve noticed in the pandemic that HR professionals, DEI professionals, have been in high demand. I say this is the moment where preparation means opportunity, where folks who weren’t necessarily at the table are considered table-ready, are now here contributing to the conversation. And I think we’re seeing better outcomes as a result of the elevation of the role and how they’re able to insert themselves in the conversation for better outcomes.

Larry Baker: Yeah. That last piece really resonates with me is because I do also feel like one of the biggest things that has changed is that the underrepresented groups, they are more vocal and more willing to hold these organizations more accountable than maybe they were in the past. Because I do feel like that culture shift, the environment not only with the pandemic but the social unrest that has been happening, has added a higher organizational responsibility that we haven’t seen in… honestly ever. So those voices feeling like it’s more acceptable to engage in these conversations, I think that’s a big change that has come about as well during this time period. I definitely agree that yeah, this is a different ballgame that we’re in than 20-some odd years ago. Absolutely I can see that.

So Bernard, I absolutely appreciate the insight that you’ve provided, and I know that you have so many different ways that people can engage with you, and they can hear more from you on this topic and others. I wanna give you an opportunity to kinda share how folks can reach out to hear some of the things or some of the insights that you’re sharing in the work that you do. Can you give us some idea of how can we get in touch with Bernard after.

Bernard Coleman: Sure, and thank you for that. I write a column for Inc called “The Culture Code.” I write about a lot of different things that I see going on. I try to make sure it’s timely, and usually what I’m writing about are things that I’m working through, how we can apply it at work, or things that I think I’m seeing in the landscape that I think if I’m thinking about it, I bet others are too and are looking to engage in some type of conversation. And maybe I can add to the conversation as we think about what’s next. We’re all trying to predict the future, but I want to be additive and helpful cuz I know when things like this hit recessions, downturns, things come from left field. You’re always looking for resources. I know how I felt when I was looking for answers or trying to make my decisions more informed. I just fully just wanna be, be helpful. I’d encourage folks to check that out if they like.

Larry Baker: That’s great, thank you so much. So much so that somebody else said, “Wait, before we leave, Bernard, I wanna ask one more question!” I think I just got a response, so here we go. “Do you think this layoff or recession environment will lead to a loss of equity in pay? Whatever gains have happened over the years for Black and Brown folks in tech, how best can we combat that?” Wow. Powerful question.

Bernard Coleman: Yes and no. That’s a very complicated answer. It depends on… we’re speaking of Black and Brown folks. What’s interesting, Black and Brown folks are unicorns, but also at the same time you might the castaways depending on what role you’re in. I think if you’re a unicorn in a role that’s highly sought-after, you can probably make incredible gains. But if you are in a role that maybe has less barriers of entry, therefore easier to cut, it could be catastrophic.

I also am seeing people talk about pay in different ways. Like now a lot of people, at least in the tech sector, can work remotely. Localized pay…. is it cost of labor versus um, Uh, you know, COLA, right? Cost of…

Larry Baker: Living adjustments? Yeah.

Bernard Coleman: Yeah. All those different things impact how somebody’s gonna do, right? I think it’s a very complicated question. I think it’s probably leaning more towards yes, I do think it will impact Black and Brown folks’ equity and pay, and then the lucky few, like “I’m an engineer who does AI. Of course I’m doing the extreme. I would no matter what.”

I think the best way to combat that is to look at the equity in and of itself and to make sure we’re being equitable fair if we are gonna do layoffs. Larry, you talked about being vocal: people need to remind people of how does that look. “How is this even possible that this size is all this group?” Then probe and ask, “Why is it this way? Why is it that way? How is that even happening?” Really just using your voice. I think that’s the one thing, the Great Resignation and whatever “great” we’re in right now, is leveraging your voice to elevate these things and making people aware. A lot of the data that we see, at least the latest thing that I was looking at was the McKinsey Lean In Report, but it talks about women of color leaving the workforce at large. It’s especially exacerbated for Black and Brown women, right? Different pockets are getting hit differently from this. I think it’s gonna be very dependent on what your discipline is, what your company is, and then what your gender is. It’s gonna be very different depending on what seat you’re in.

I think the best way to combat it is… companies themselves should be thinking about this all the time and making sure it’s equitable. If they ever have to do a layoff, looking back in an equitable fashion, I would expect you to have a good employment council or one on dial to look and talk about that and not just go with list of your team made up cuz otherwise it’s gonna skew. The second thing—and not that I’m providing like legal advice, it’s just looking over my career—you have to have some quality control and list manager to make sure that one group isn’t getting slighted or disproportionately being impacted. In other words—“adverse impact” would be the legal-use term—someone needs to be looking at those lists. I think the other thing that’s can be added is making sure that you just keep an eye on your demographics. In Gusto we look at it monthly: we report it internally, so everyone kind of see how we’re doing. I think it’s excellent best practice. That’s part of the transparency, is letting people know this is how we’re doing day in and day out, but anything you can do to elevate it and keep that topic of conversation I think helps one group or two groups getting adversely impacted.

Larry Baker: Yeah, I love that. And I’m gonna steal this phrase, “our unicorns and castaways.” Do we have too many people in a certain group in our castaways or do we have too few of people in our unicorns? I love that phrase and absolutely that is key to that whole conversation around equity. So I appreciate you putting that out into the atmosphere, and I’m gonna keep that term perpetuating through all of my conversations with clients and look at those unicorns and look at those castaways.

Thank you so much, Bernard, because this has been such a great conversation, and the reality is it doesn’t stop here. We hope that you take this advice and the questions that were asked back into your own workplaces, and specifically if you want a partner in having these conversations, let us know. You can contact LCW at languageandculture.com. We would be more than happy to help assist your organization in having these conversations in the future.

Thank you so much, Bernard, for taking your time and sharing with us your expertise. I absolutely appreciate that. I will give you an opportunity to have any closing thoughts if you’d like to share with the audience before we adjourn our session.

Bernard Coleman: Yeah, I think the closing thoughts would be be students of history. It can help inform the future. Recognize that a lot of folks have a voice that didn’t exist before, and you really have to elevate the conversation to drive accountability. I think if you could do those things well, it doesn’t have to be like it was in the past. And this is to Larry’s point, this is a journey that we’re all on. It’s on all of us to keep doing our part in the journey to make sure it is a more equitable future.

Larry Baker: Absolutely. Thank you so much for that, Bernard. Excellent words. I really do hope that folks take a lot of this action-planning to heart and implement these back in your workplaces because all of this is extremely important. It has to have a different future moving forward.

Thank you so much for joining us, Bernard. Thank you so much to everyone who has joined in on this call. This has been Brave Conversations with LCW Live. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful rest of your day.

Bernard Coleman: Thank you.

Larry Baker: And to all of you that are listening, we wanna know what were your biggest takeaways from this conversation? Please share them with us on Facebook, Twitter, or LinkedIn at Language and Culture Worldwide or LCW.